Hatcheries vs. No Hatcheries

[Covelo]

Do you want hatchery fish or not? It SHOULD be a question asked about each water individually and acted upon by committed locals if anything is going to change....and that is regardless of statewide politics or policy.

Not necessarily. If the science continues to build showing a negative impact of hatchery stocks on wild stocks, look for groups to start court actions to stop hatcheries from releasing hatchery fish into streams with ESA listed runs. In these cases, state and local policies and politics will not matter. Neither will the will of the populace unless they want to throw out the ESA.

[Mike O]

Small groups of motivated individuals can have an impact on a river by river basis.

Look at the reg changes on Putah Creek. The Putah Creek Association, run off of Greg Bono's BB, made that happen ON THEIR OWN.

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Although I would not call what happened there an improvement by any means. It just closed the river to a lot of people.

[Darian]

mikel,.... I agree with your thought that a small group of individuals can impact their home waters in a positive way. However, for the most part it will be on a small/local scale.

I'm not sure your characterization of what has transpired on the Trinity River over the last 60 years can be attributed to "individuals". That took the efforts of Trinity County government, Tribal and environmental NGO's, millions of dollars and litigation which is still ongoing to approach what is in place today. As has already been proven, the scale of issues involving valley rivers will not be resolved thru the efforts of a small group of locals.

Don't fool yourself. With the monied/political (federal/state) interests involved, do you really believe that a small number of locals can/will affect the outcome of water issues impacting this state Until budget/water issues are resolved and the economic climate is improved, I'm thinking that not much else is going to get done. Unless new litigation forces it.

[Loren E]

Again you seem to be under the illusion that over fishing by sports has somehow caused the declines in these fisheries and that all we need to do is limit take. This is a false presumption. If this was the case then several of our rivers should be teeming with wild steelhead as they have had C&R regs in place for over a decade (decades in some OR rivers). You can keep waiting but these rivers will not ever come back unless they improve the habitat and flows, and stop implementing unsound policies, such as introducing hatchery fish in un-dammed systems. .

We're on the same page here, of course I realize the far greater impact of environmental degredation over sport fishing take, especially in this case (although I do think in some instances sport impact is often greatly underplayed "because commercial guys take so much more", but that is a different thread), I was just trying to respond to the multiple posts that suggested that the stopping of hatcheries would lead to the closing of sport fishing (which it likely would I think) as if that was the very end of the world, which I disagree with, as we have to think long-run with these issues and not doing so is often the problem. Bottom line though..yes, of course, the environmental issues of erosion, water diversion, damming, etc play by far the greatest role in the health of these fish stocks....the dams of California rivers were certainly the cause of the demise of our strong wild populations of salmon and steelhead.

[NightMuffin]

Central Valley hatcheries on the Sac as including the feather have not decreased production of Chinook or Steelhead.

[mikel]

Mao...you may not like the special regs on Putah, but those guys reacted to their "no stocking" situation and got something done. Right or wrong they took action and got it done.

Darian...I'm sure there were more than a few individuals or small groups invlved on the Trin over the decades...having said that I'd wager that you or others on this board can name the names of the individuals and small groups that DID have an impact there, especially in the early years after the dams were built. The Trinity didn't recover because the government or some huge bureacracy decided the poor little steelies needed a minimum flow to live.

You ask "do you really believe that a small number of locals can/will affect the outcome of water issues impacting this state?" and I believe the answer is yes...and here's why...

One thing I learned in business is that sometimes you have to do the impossible and solve unsolvable problems. If you take on the huge issue all at once, head on, you are doomed to failure. The way to solve unsolvable problems is one piece at a time, one small victory after another. Just take a little piece and solve it. If you do that enough times, eventually the initial problem becomes manageable.

If there were "Friends of the river" groups representing the Moke, Calaveras, each fork of the American and every other fishable watershed on the western Sierra and they were both active and smart as I believe the Putah group was, then I believe there could be progress.

Covelo...The lawsuit you envision would be the result of NOT taking action on a water by water basis in the 1st place. If we were already doing that instead of talking generically about hatchery vs wild at the 50,000 foot level there might not BE a lawsuit.

Hey, maybe I'm all wrong...what's happening now doesn't seem to be working out all that well...

[BillB]

If I'm not mistaken the Kings River Restoration project was/is done by a relatively small group of people. Granted it is not influenced by the politics of anadromous fish. I do know that the project has be in operation for some time. JM probably has a wealth of information on this project. There are also special regs on almost all of the river up to and including the national park.

[Darian]

OK, I realize that small groups have been affective on small projects. A step in the right direction.

However, most of the projects that have been successful are sponsored by organizations such as CSBA, CalTrout and Trout unlimited, etc. Too many NGO's to mention here. Personally, I don't recall and can't find any record of any individuals involved in the Trinity River solution which may not yet be complete. Mikel, If you choose you could check out the Trinity to get a decent history of the Trinity battles:

www.trinitycounty.org

You're really in denial if you think the Delta and related water issues (which involve ongoing diversions the Trinity River) will be solved by a few outsider individuals. For example, we are unable to undo legitimate property purchases involving riparian habitat by water agencies like Westlands by getting a few of the guys together and bitching about it It's gonna take more than that....

At any rate, I've wasted too many words trying to get this point across and I'm done with this thread.

[Nailknot]

Loren E, here is a link with much information.
http://nativefishsociety.org/?page_id=201

The comprehensive recent study w conclusions about negative hatchery/wild interactions was conducted on the Hood River in OR.

[Dustin Revel]

IMHO, negative impacts of habitat degradation due to human activities isn't hard to recognize but since fly fisherman are part of human activities and we carry out many more activities that're not related to fly fishing, we contribute to degradation, as much as anyone else (direct and/or indirect).

while our mere existence does have negative impacts on habitat, there is much more to it than that.
People need to start thinking about where they exist. the choices we make on a daily basis (including where we set up camp, get our food/water) can greatly decrease or impact. most of california is not suitable for dense human population and at some point mother nature will make us very aware of that... the ironic part is that the most dense areas are the least suited for humans. It is very interesting that the most dense native American populations lived in some of the most rural parts of what is now ca, while the most heavily populated parts of ca today are almost historically void of native population.

Ultimately what i'm getting at is fisherman should be more conscious than your average joe and hopefully this influences their decision making process.