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Thread: first trip up the American

  1. #51
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    Arrow Striper Stuff Redux....

    Robin,.... If I recall the subject of that post, it was about a reference to entrainment of Stripers at "da pumps" (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong....). I found that if I go to the DFW website and enter "entrainment of striped bass at the SWP" it led me to an index of a number of articles, studies and reports about entrainment of a number of species, including Stripers. Haven't had much of a chance to read them, yet, but I'm working on it ASAP. Anyway, it's a good starting point....

    Mike,.... Much like discussions/exchanges between you and myself, ycflyfisher (Mr. Ryan) and I have had a history of very interesting discussion/exchanges with each other and I've always learned something from them even tho we don't always agree on the outcomes. It's always a good mental exercise and informative. Hopefully, he feels the same way about our discussions.

    I can't really speak for Mr. Ryan but I think he's frustrated by the type of discussion that comes up on this and some other BB's about Stripers when it turns out to be more judgmental/anecdotal/pragmatic than scientific. Maybe the change allowing Spearfishing for Stripers was the tipping point(???). Thus, his rant. Actually, all he's asking is that we support our claims about the problems we've identified with some background/historic or scientific info....

    The same thing appears more often in the Salmon/Steelhead Forum, with folks lining up on all sides of an issue. However, it seems that many posters over there are more likely to include links to info in support of whatever side they're on. Not something I like to do in my posts but, I will sometimes post a link. Just a matter of style. Like you, when it comes to discussion in a formal setting, I'll be listening carefully and always try to have my ducks in a row.
    Last edited by Darian; 08-15-2013 at 08:01 AM.
    "America is a country which produces citizens who will cross the ocean to fight for democracy but won't cross the street to vote."

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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ycflyfisher View Post
    Mike,
    That response is nothing short of amazing. You want that data. I'll certainly give you that data. Can't do it tonight because I'm on a mobile and I don't actually have that data with me. You want it, I'll be happy to deliver it. And just to set the record straight, and so you have no excuse for ducking my questions and responses like you did in the last two threads, here's my scoop. I'm Willie Ryan (yes the same onethat has called your bluff on too many occasions to count). I'm actually a CE who is employed by a Norcal county and not a water monger as per your false accusation. Don't believe that? Well there's only about 3 dozen or so former members of the ncffb that can confirm that. Not to mention several fisheries professionals on this forum who know exactly who I am and what I'm about. Don't want to take their word for it? Send me an email to ycflyfisher@yahoo.com and I'll photograph a business card and you can call the number on the card.
    I can vouch for Willie's identity....

  3. #53
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    Default Yeah, it was pretty amazing..it got you out of the closet..

    I've pulled the post for a rewrite, sometimes circular arguments are more trouble than they're worth.

    Hey Willy, Please post your data (or reference links) on entrainment as well as any data that supports your assertions about striped bass population levels..

    Mike
    Last edited by Mike McKenzie; 08-16-2013 at 07:20 AM.

  4. #54
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    Mike,

    Apology accepted. I think it’s good that your finally willing to have a discussion. I can’t really “show you” most of the discussions we’ve had in the past because the archives of the forum where those discussions occurred no longer exists. All water under the bridge as far as I’m concerned. For starters, you’ve objected when I referred to you and your cohorts as “striper aficionados” in a prior thread. You’re objecting to being referred to as “striper gurus” in this one. You’ve even objected on a different forum to the term “striper proponents”. What is a politically correct term that you and your cohorts won’t find offensive? Tell me what it is, and that’s what I’ll use going forward.

    Also, the 1M+, age 3+ stripers comes straight out of the appendix documentation that accompanies the POD progress reports. Your numbers are different, because they’re more recent and the population declined. Looking back, the abundance numbers for striped bass lags the release date of the progress reports by several years. That I did not notice. Thanks for providing more recent data.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mike McKenzie View Post
    You are wasting your time having a discussion with this guy. He either cannot read or fails to understand the language or so steeped in his own belief system that any other thought is incomprehensible to him..
    Not trying to trainwreck this discussion since we’re now actually are having a discussion. But I definitely feel compelled to respond to this other accusation. I hope you can understand why. Particularly when you follow up with: “What I do know is you make a lot of statements that don't ring true as I pointed out in my previous "amazing" post.” Respectfully Mike, you hit me with that accusation, and follow up with reaffirmation. I’d agree from your perspective nothing I said “rings true”. Let’s look at why that is though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mike McKenzie View Post
    Another misstatement from the quote below "that predation by things like pike minnows (native fish that evolved in basin), Blue Herons, American Shad, and cormorants are a legit concern and could be having population level effects" I've been involved in this for years and have never heard that expressed by anyone but ycflyfisher.
    Pretty far removed from the actual original context.

    Here’s what I actually said from post #44 (this very thread):

    "I definitely agree with your second statement. Problem is, the striper gurus don’t get it. The discussions that occur on this forum by the striper gurus don’t have anything to do with legit attempts to identify causes (they identify villains), or real attempts at conservation. Their mantra consists of two elements and two elements only:

    1- Conspiracy theories that attempt to shift the predation blame from the million plus age 3+ stripers to something else. These usually come in the form of a totally definitive statement that predation by stripers is a non-issue BUT that predation by things like pike minnows (native fish that evolved in basin), Blue Herons, American Shad, and cormorants are a legit concern and could be having population level effects. And of course, the pumps are the real predators….despite the fact there’s decades of entrainment data that says otherwise.

    And if you really think I’m supporting those conspiracy theories you also missed post #29 where I said:

    That’s even more bizarre than the various Pike Minnow, Blue Heron, American Shad, and Cormorant conspiracy theories that have been advanced on this forum in the past, wherein said culprits all are having a much greater effect on the abundance of anadromous salmonids than are the 1 million plus age 3+ piscivorous stripers.

    And

    It’s pretty obvious to me that fly anglers that envision themselves to be the megaphones of striped bass conservation are never going to abandon the purely emotional refutations that are never going to gain traction with the policy makers but instead will continue to look for villains (the pumps, the spearfisherman, the pike minnow, the squawfish, the pinnapeds, or simply people like myself advocating that the peer reviewed science and the individuals who produce said science are your best allies) and play the blame game with said villains."

    Now I hope you can realize that your implication that I was supporting these theories simply isn’t true. Now I’m not sure on what basis you’re assuming I’m attributing all those conspiracy theories to you. Rereading what I’ve said in this thread, I’m not seeing where you’re getting that notion from. That seems an assumption to me on your part.

    You did in a prior thread literally state in one paragraph that predation by stripers was not having a terminal effect on population abundance of salmonids ( in a thread where I had already stated the same). Then in the very next paragraph, you mentioned that we should be concerned about cormorants. You might actually recall, that I actually thanked you for elevating the discussion from the American Shad drama. And among other things, I asked you to talk us through the rationalization of how you transition from dismissing the population level effect of predation of striped bass one moment, but that we should consider cormorants a serious threat. You elected not to explain that rationalization nor answer any of my other questions and you literally blew that thread up. If my tone seems “over the top” and terse to you it’s because statements like this that you and your cohorts seem to make in abundance, seem driven by pure emotion and seem completely comical to me. And they all do seem like predation blame shifting to me. Now if there’s a coherent, logical way to connect those dots (predation by striped bass isn’t a terminal concern but cormorants are), talk us through it please. I’m just not seeing that as being possible. Same goes for the various PM, Blue heron, spearfisherman et. al, discussions that have been advanced by your cohorts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike McKenzie View Post
    Also where has it ever been said that predation by stripers is a "non-issue" ?? (His quote from below) It has been stated by California's best fisheries experts that it does not rise to having a population level effect on ESA listed species and is an issue of "least concern" but that doesn't make it a non-issue. He completely misses the issues around the predation of hatchery smolts which is a problem that has yet to be properly dealt with.

    Scroll up and reread what I actually stated from post #44. Again, context. Respectfully Mike, nothing I’ve said “rings true” to you, but the reason for that is you’ve taken everything I’ve stated completely out of context. I’m seeing your underlined statement being perfectly applicable for this discussion, but from my perspective it doesn’t apply to me. I don’t have a particular problem with this issue (no harm, no foul), but since you brought it up, I’m taking the time to set the record straight.

    PS- Darian, you’re always good in my book.

  5. #55
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    Since you’ve got current data on striper abundance for 2009, let’s look at the entrainment data for 2009. Follow this link:

    https://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/documents/Con...vageMonitoring

    Download the report entitled: “2009 Fish Salvage at the Tracy Fish Collection Facility”
    Download the report entitled: “Fish Salvage at the SWP and CVP Fish Facilities during 2009”.

    First let’s discuss some generalities and trends. Notice first that you’ve got the entrainment data going all the way back to 1982. Hence my comment that there are decades worth of empirical data. Notice that the numbers are completely time weighted to account literally for every minute the pumps are running in the TFCF report. Also notice that entrainment was much higher in the first 5 years of entrainment monitoring for Chinooks, but it dropped off quite sharply after that. Seems the powers that be made it a priority to improve efficiency. Also notice that the pumps tended to entrain more streamborn fish, than hatchery fish. For the sake of simplicity, we're just going to look at this in terms of abundance.

    Can’t say I’ve ever heard any concern from you or your cohorts over things like carp, bluegill or catfish, so let’s stick with the species that you and your cohorts are always attempting to shift the predation impact of stripers to something else: Chinook salmon. Take note of how loss and salvage are defined for Chinook in the Tracy report. All that said, let’s see if the actual data supports “The pumps are the real predators” mantra.


    Let’s attempt to establish some facts and make some assumptions.

    The caveat with the entrainment data is that larval fish under 20mm in FL are not reliably entrained and actual losses for anything <20mm FL is likely understated. Chinooks that are mature enough to undergo the smoltification process and are down migrating through the Delta are all definitely going to be in excess of 50mm in FL. In other words, Chinooks are plenty big enough to be entrained, and thus there’s no good reason to think the numbers for Chinook are understated.

    Let’s assume that salvage survival is 0.0%. In other words, we’re assuming that every Chinook that is processed dies. If it becomes entrained, it’s gone. This assumption is extremely biased in favor of the pumps being the real predators.

    Let’s also assume that there is NO predation of Chinook, by any striped bass that are less mature than age3+. Age 3+ stripers are defined in the abundance modeling as being >460mm FL. So all those Chinook that got eaten by stripers 459mm FL or less in 2009, don’t count. Call it a big mulligan. This assumption is extremely biased in downplaying the predation effect of stripers.

    Let’s also assume that 2009 was a funky year in terms of abundance sampling for striped bass. And the actual abundance falls in the lower range of the 95% confidence levels of the Petersen model. I’m assuming the number you quoted was the median here, so we’re going to purposely reduce the number you provided to 800,000 age 3+ stripers. Again, this assumption is also extremely biased in downplaying the predation effect of stripers.

    Here’s the actual numbers:

    Chinook numbers from Skinner ran 2463 and 10620 respectively for salvage and loss.
    Chinook numbers from Tracy ran 4666 and 3682 respectively for salvage and loss

    Here’s what you end up with: 2463+10620+4666+3682= 21,431 Chinooks killed by the pumps. Again we’re assuming no salvage survival. They’re all dead and removed from the equation. That number still seems pretty insignificant though doesn’t it? What percentage of the total abundance does that number really represent? Hatcheries in the system typically produce~26-30 million or so Chinook each year if memory serves. Let’s assume 2009 was a horrid year for hatchery production and they only produced 20M Chinooks (I forgot to lookup the actual hatchery production for 2009, but even in a year where the SFRC collapse was in effect, I don’t recall any issues with hatcheries hitting their production quotas for 2009, so I’m fairly certain 20M understates actual production for 2009). To five sig figs, that comes to 0.00107 or 0.107%. In other words, the pumps killed~ one tenth of one percent of the hatchery production for 2009. Add in the natural Chinook production, that number becomes even more insignificant.

    This is the point where I actually picked up the phone and made a call because I “knew” there was something I had to be overlooking or not understanding. I definitely didn’t expect the data to support the “pumps are the real predators” mantra, but I did expect to see data that indicated the pumps were pulling in something like 500k to 1 million Chinooks a year on average. That’s not what’s happening Mike. Those are the real numbers, and I was told that there’s no other way to validly interpret those numbers, and that they are indeed time weighted to the minute, as the equation indicates.

    How does that stack up to predation by stripers? It falls well short as you might imagine. For predation by the stripers to equal the “bodycount” entrained by the pumps, if only 3 (and I’m rounding up here from 2.7 to 3) out of every 100 age 3+ stripers ate one single, solitary Chinook smolt during 2009, predation by stripers equals the effect of the pumps. If 6 out of every 100 stripers ate 1 Chinook, they’ve doubled the predation effectiveness of the pumps. If 30 out of every 100 age 3+ stripers at 1 Chinook, they’ve magnified the predation effect of the pumps 10 fold. And remember, we’ve made assumptions that purposely understate the number of stripers capable of preying on Chinooks, and assumptions that inflate the number of Chinooks removed by the pumps.

    Now I’m not arguing that predation by stripers is having a population level effect on Chinooks, but the potential for Chinooks to become entrained by the pumps ends once the fish make it downstream of the pumps. Predation by stripers doesn’t stop even long after the Chinooks hit the salt. That as I see it, is the reality.

    But there has to be some other systemic effect that’s magnifying the effect of the pumps but it’s not showing up in the data, right? Let’s allow for that and build in a safety factor. It’s not actually the pumps but things like the configuration of the conveyance system causing more ideal predation hot spots (things like CCFB, and RBDD), a river that in its lower reaches runs levee to levee with no feathered edges, etc. In other words, the Chinooks are getting eaten by stripers and other predators, but we’re placing that predation blame on man-made structures that create unnatural predation opportunities. What do you think is fair? 10 percent? 50 percent? One hundred%? Well at 100% we move that number from 21k to 42k. Still seems pretty insignificant doesn’t it? Let’s just toss objectivity aside and totally cook the books and see how much you have to purposely skew those numbers for them to become significant. Let’s build in a safety factor of 4000%, critics be damned that there’s no remotely justifiable reason for doing so because we’re going to do whatever it takes to make those numbers seem significant. That gets us to 878,671. That has to be significant right? We’re approaching a million dead Chinooks. But is it significant?

    If every age 3+ striper (keep in mind we’ve already done a lot of cooking by purposely reducing the number of stripers large enough to prey on Chinooks) eat only an average of 1 chinook for the entire 365 day period, the pumps and the stripers are running pretty close to even. And it doesn’t matter whether those Chinooks are being eaten upstream of the delta, in the bay, or in the salt off the Farallones. Do you really think age 3+ stripers are actually only eating one Chinook a year on average?

    Maybe 2009 was just a really low year for entrainment. Truth is, it was. Run another year where the entrainment numbers are higher. Run another species of concern (steelhead, or D Smelt). Keep in mind those as you go back in time, striper abundance begins to also rise and other factors come into play, and you need to take those factors into account.

    So I’m asking, do you think the data supports the “pumps are the real predators” mantra?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ycflyfisher View Post
    Since you’ve got current data on striper abundance for 2009, let’s look at the entrainment data for 2009. Follow this link:

    https://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/documents/Con...vageMonitoring

    Download the report entitled: “2009 Fish Salvage at the Tracy Fish Collection Facility”
    Download the report entitled: “Fish Salvage at the SWP and CVP Fish Facilities during 2009”.

    First let’s discuss some generalities and trends. Notice first that you’ve got the entrainment data going all the way back to 1982. Hence my comment that there are decades worth of empirical data. Notice that the numbers are completely time weighted to account literally for every minute the pumps are running in the TFCF report. Also notice that entrainment was much higher in the first 5 years of entrainment monitoring for Chinooks, but it dropped off quite sharply after that. Seems the powers that be made it a priority to improve efficiency. Also notice that the pumps tended to entrain more streamborn fish, than hatchery fish. For the sake of simplicity, we're just going to look at this in terms of abundance.

    Can’t say I’ve ever heard any concern from you or your cohorts over things like carp, bluegill or catfish, so let’s stick with the species that you and your cohorts are always attempting to shift the predation impact of stripers to something else: Chinook salmon. Take note of how loss and salvage are defined for Chinook in the Tracy report. All that said, let’s see if the actual data supports “The pumps are the real predators” mantra.


    Let’s attempt to establish some facts and make some assumptions.

    The caveat with the entrainment data is that larval fish under 20mm in FL are not reliably entrained and actual losses for anything <20mm FL is likely understated. Chinooks that are mature enough to undergo the smoltification process and are down migrating through the Delta are all definitely going to be in excess of 50mm in FL. In other words, Chinooks are plenty big enough to be entrained, and thus there’s no good reason to think the numbers for Chinook are understated.

    Let’s assume that salvage survival is 0.0%. In other words, we’re assuming that every Chinook that is processed dies. If it becomes entrained, it’s gone. This assumption is extremely biased in favor of the pumps being the real predators.

    Let’s also assume that there is NO predation of Chinook, by any striped bass that are less mature than age3+. Age 3+ stripers are defined in the abundance modeling as being >460mm FL. So all those Chinook that got eaten by stripers 459mm FL or less in 2009, don’t count. Call it a big mulligan. This assumption is extremely biased in downplaying the predation effect of stripers.

    Let’s also assume that 2009 was a funky year in terms of abundance sampling for striped bass. And the actual abundance falls in the lower range of the 95% confidence levels of the Petersen model. I’m assuming the number you quoted was the median here, so we’re going to purposely reduce the number you provided to 800,000 age 3+ stripers. Again, this assumption is also extremely biased in downplaying the predation effect of stripers.

    Here’s the actual numbers:

    Chinook numbers from Skinner ran 2463 and 10620 respectively for salvage and loss.
    Chinook numbers from Tracy ran 4666 and 3682 respectively for salvage and loss

    Here’s what you end up with: 2463+10620+4666+3682= 21,431 Chinooks killed by the pumps. Again we’re assuming no salvage survival. They’re all dead and removed from the equation. That number still seems pretty insignificant though doesn’t it? What percentage of the total abundance does that number really represent? Hatcheries in the system typically produce~26-30 million or so Chinook each year if memory serves. Let’s assume 2009 was a horrid year for hatchery production and they only produced 20M Chinooks (I forgot to lookup the actual hatchery production for 2009, but even in a year where the SFRC collapse was in effect, I don’t recall any issues with hatcheries hitting their production quotas for 2009, so I’m fairly certain 20M understates actual production for 2009). To five sig figs, that comes to 0.00107 or 0.107%. In other words, the pumps killed~ one tenth of one percent of the hatchery production for 2009. Add in the natural Chinook production, that number becomes even more insignificant.

    This is the point where I actually picked up the phone and made a call because I “knew” there was something I had to be overlooking or not understanding. I definitely didn’t expect the data to support the “pumps are the real predators” mantra, but I did expect to see data that indicated the pumps were pulling in something like 500k to 1 million Chinooks a year on average. That’s not what’s happening Mike. Those are the real numbers, and I was told that there’s no other way to validly interpret those numbers, and that they are indeed time weighted to the minute, as the equation indicates.

    How does that stack up to predation by stripers? It falls well short as you might imagine. For predation by the stripers to equal the “bodycount” entrained by the pumps, if only 3 (and I’m rounding up here from 2.7 to 3) out of every 100 age 3+ stripers ate one single, solitary Chinook smolt during 2009, predation by stripers equals the effect of the pumps. If 6 out of every 100 stripers ate 1 Chinook, they’ve doubled the predation effectiveness of the pumps. If 30 out of every 100 age 3+ stripers at 1 Chinook, they’ve magnified the predation effect of the pumps 10 fold. And remember, we’ve made assumptions that purposely understate the number of stripers capable of preying on Chinooks, and assumptions that inflate the number of Chinooks removed by the pumps.

    Now I’m not arguing that predation by stripers is having a population level effect on Chinooks, but the potential for Chinooks to become entrained by the pumps ends once the fish make it downstream of the pumps. Predation by stripers doesn’t stop even long after the Chinooks hit the salt. That as I see it, is the reality.

    But there has to be some other systemic effect that’s magnifying the effect of the pumps but it’s not showing up in the data, right? Let’s allow for that and build in a safety factor. It’s not actually the pumps but things like the configuration of the conveyance system causing more ideal predation hot spots (things like CCFB, and RBDD), a river that in its lower reaches runs levee to levee with no feathered edges, etc. In other words, the Chinooks are getting eaten by stripers and other predators, but we’re placing that predation blame on man-made structures that create unnatural predation opportunities. What do you think is fair? 10 percent? 50 percent? One hundred%? Well at 100% we move that number from 21k to 42k. Still seems pretty insignificant doesn’t it? Let’s just toss objectivity aside and totally cook the books and see how much you have to purposely skew those numbers for them to become significant. Let’s build in a safety factor of 4000%, critics be damned that there’s no remotely justifiable reason for doing so because we’re going to do whatever it takes to make those numbers seem significant. That gets us to 878,671. That has to be significant right? We’re approaching a million dead Chinooks. But is it significant?

    If every age 3+ striper (keep in mind we’ve already done a lot of cooking by purposely reducing the number of stripers large enough to prey on Chinooks) eat only an average of 1 chinook for the entire 365 day period, the pumps and the stripers are running pretty close to even. And it doesn’t matter whether those Chinooks are being eaten upstream of the delta, in the bay, or in the salt off the Farallones. Do you really think age 3+ stripers are actually only eating one Chinook a year on average?

    Maybe 2009 was just a really low year for entrainment. Truth is, it was. Run another year where the entrainment numbers are higher. Run another species of concern (steelhead, or D Smelt). Keep in mind those as you go back in time, striper abundance begins to also rise and other factors come into play, and you need to take those factors into account.

    So I’m asking, do you think the data supports the “pumps are the real predators” mantra?

    In a word, No.. I don't have time to digest either of your posts right now... In the meantime.....
    Here's some reading for you...
    http://www.deltacouncil.ca.gov/get-document/1584
    http://www.kierassociates.net/Kier%2...umps_final.pdf
    http://www.bay.org/assets/Collateral%20Damage_4_2.pdf

    Mike

  7. #57
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    Post Lots of stuff to Digest....

    Gotts do some more reading. One of the things I find annoying/distracting in using DFW documents on-line is that whoever enters the reports frequently leaves off a portion of those documents. For example, the newsletter, Bay-Delta IEP Fish Salvage Monitoring Documents. When I opened this 5 page document, I was only able to display 2 of the pages. Maybe the unrelated subject in the newsletter are stored under another subject area....

    At any rate, I was really amazed to see that the predator that was the most numerous in Clifton Court Forebay during one study was the White Catfish; Stripers were second. Also, I found a diagram of the Skinner Fish Protection Facility that I found interesting. Wheeeeuh!!! lotsa stuff to read from Mike & ycflyfisher.
    "America is a country which produces citizens who will cross the ocean to fight for democracy but won't cross the street to vote."

    Author unknown

  8. #58
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    From what I've seen, "The pumps are the predators" is marketing. It's a simple and catchy rallying cry. People like Mike --- and certainly all the agencies --- know that entrainment into the diversion facilities is a 'direct effect' that's relatively easy to document, but that water operations leading to diversion result in myriad 'indirect effects' that are harder to document (e.g., don't result in 'dead bodies'). Indirect effects include changes in the quality of delta smelt habitat when water operations --- via interaction between diversions and release of water from dams --- result in large upstream-downstream shifts in the location of the low-salinity zone. Reverse (negative) flow in Old River and Middle River is another feature that is thought to have negative indirect effects. Marketing (e.g. a rallying cry) has impact and anglers have good marketing regarding entrainment. Why no marketing about indirect effects?
    Last edited by Marty Gingras; 08-17-2013 at 12:49 PM.

  9. #59
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    Thumbs up "Da Pumps"

    Hi Marty,.... Good observations. The pumps have become a symbol for some (myself included) that include everything going wrong in the Delta. As you've said it's an easy, catchy rallying cry; more marketing and all inclusive. It doesn't gain much traction among policy makers or professionals if viewed as the single demonic problem. It does tend to focus effort, tho. As I'm sure you're aware, getting a diverse group of people to agree on anything is kinda like herding cats....

    As you've pointed out, the pumps do cause some identifiable problems by themselves and after the discussion (maybe over year ago on this subject), I began to realize how complex these issues/situation are; thanks to you for providing the links to that info. However, if I took the time to to list them all, my audience would likely leave or tune out before I was able to finish. So, probably not going to be any rallying cry for indirect impacts.

    Realizing this I jumped on the train, too, but my interest/issue is the BDCP and, along with a few others, I've been trying to keep up on the developments while digesting the description of the project. By itself, this project will have so many direct/indirect, positive/negative impacts inside/outside of the delta that most of them haven't even been imagined, yet. Plus, it's still in the design phase (a plan to plan???). Those impacts include the indirect impacts (hydrology issues) for fish that you've mentioned.

    At this point, the potential overall risk involved is massive. I understand the need to move quickly on projects to keep momentum going but this project, apparently, doesn't anticipate/consider potential alternatives in any real scenario first. Worse, it doesn't address pollution of water used by all sources but allows all to run-off into our waterways, untreated. At least municipal users are required to treat/re-use their water to some extent before releasing it. The BDCP doesn't address groundwater issues at all. ....Sorry guys, gotta get off my soap box for now.

    Anyway, thanks for your observations, Marty. Hope you'll keep up with us on this stuff.
    Last edited by Darian; 08-17-2013 at 08:53 AM.
    "America is a country which produces citizens who will cross the ocean to fight for democracy but won't cross the street to vote."

    Author unknown

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darian View Post
    ...my interest/issue is the BDCP and, along with a few others, I've been trying to keep up on the developments while digesting the description of the project.
    Your interest in BDCP is excellent and a wise focus!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darian View Post
    ...probably not going to be any rallying cry for indirect impacts.
    Please don't give up. I was in high school when the PC and 'negative flows' were first in the news. The notion of rivers flowing backwards has stuck with me for pushing 40 years...

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