Feast or Salmon?

[Ned Morris]

Alosa,

I've talked to Tom Cannon about that Daguerre Point Dam observation that Ned was referring to and he says that there was no study that was specifically looking at predation. When Peter Moyle and Tom were working up there they were basically looking at salmon fry numbers above the Dam and happened to look for fry below the Dam and found very few among the striped bass, pike minnows trout and shad. There were, as usual during the shad spawn, a large number of shad there along with the other fish...There was nothing but a casual observation..As you may know shad can switch from zooplankton to fish fry anytime but more likely during the spawn (sometimes)
The only study on Shad predation that Tom knows about is one done at the Red Bluff Diversion Dam several years ago by the the BuRec which showed that the Dam was detrimental to the salmon fry in that it caused predation by its existence due to it providing cover and security for shad, stripers and pike minnows also the bright lights that adorn the structure helped make it easier for the predators to pick them off. All of which led to the recommendation for removal. If you know anyone at BuRec maybe they could lead you to the paper on the study which showed shad with bellies full of fry as well as the other fish.

Hope this helps..

Mike

Amen. If you read my original post guys I stated water is the main issue. Knew this statement would raise some eyebrows but Shad do feed on Salmon Fry and other small fishes during spawn. Impacts are apparently not conclusive as stated so I would love to talk to Alosa more on what he finds out as he is the true expert in the room. My theory is that during spawn, Shad have a greater impact on Salmon Fry than do Stripers and Pikeminnow, that's all! I have read similar accounts on negative impacts that Dams create on the Columbia by ODFW on how shear numbers of Shad can at times block migrating Salmon passage at Bonneville so BuRec could have some good info there as well. Look as Larry S points out, Shad have been here for 140 years and Stripers 130 years. As I said again in my original post, Salmon and Steelhead runs were just fine 80 years ago so take into account 50+ years of all these non-native fish competing. What I find with great intrigue is that shad fly patterns are not that far off from a small baitfish. Put 2 and 2 together guys, it's fascinating.

Sorry I gave up on my M.S. in Fisheries at OSU to pursue corp. America 15 years ago but I still hold on to bits and pieces of it. Love to understand more Alosa.

[ycflyfisher]

Darian,
I can’t really comment about the structure or authority of any of the entities involved in the Delta, or of the contents of any of the strategic documents (like the BDCP). I haven’t read anything on the delta other than the science documents that Marty provided last fall, the progress reports, and Fred F’s work on Delta Smelt. I don’t really know enough about the topics you mention in your first two paragraphs to have an opinion on most of that stuff. I do highly doubt the DSC has any authority to govern any actions on the Trinity. I don’t know that for certain though.

In terms of the science personnel, I do think it is a good thing that there are numerous scientists from a multitude of agencies and entities working together in the development of the interagency task force that is behind the progress reports. This issues leading to the collapse of the foodweb in the delta are very complex and in most cases involve specialized specie specific science and other science disciplines that are largely unrelated. There’s likely no single agency or entity that has the requisite expertise to fully bring the totality of issues to light, and evaluate the impacts.

In terms of the strategic level of management of the delta, I’ll take your word for it and I’m sure it’s a mess. Anything that rises to the level of concern that the POD has, tends to attract politicians, would be politicians, and a myriad of biased special interests groups who feel they have a horse in the race, and all of whom feel they should be driving the proverbial boat. Most of these types have no actual expertise (my opinion) but are simply endowed with positions of control, or think they can jockey themselves into positions that have influence on the outcome. Most all are driven by their own agendas and if it were an ideal world, they wouldn’t have been allowed in the boat, let alone given access to the rudder.

As far as personal biases go, we’ve all got ‘em. That in itself isn’t ever a problem. What is a problem is when people simply cannot separate rational, fruitful discussion from their own emotional attachment to their own, ill-formed ‘theories’ that are founded in a small sample sizes of anecdotal data, or in some cases nothing at all aside from making one wreckless assumption after another. Making matters worse is their disposition to state these ill-formed opinions as absolute fact and continue to restate them ad infinitum over various threads. That isn’t fruitful discussion, but a straight up blatant attempt to ramrod their own emotion based conclusions down the throats of everyone tuning in.

Disagreement in discussion is generally viewed by most as beneficial. If it weren’t for disagreement and dissenting opinions that foster discussion no individual would ever change and become more knowledgeable and no organization of individuals would ever become more efficient. Arguing points induced of pure emotion, for the simple sake of arguing however, is not good.

[ycflyfisher]

Mike,
First of all, like Larry, I’ve got no horse in this proverbial race. I have no problem living with stripers. I’d have no problem living without stripers. If you don’t believe that, go back and read Tony’s original pike minnow conspiracy theory thread where I was the one who specifically pointed out that that there is no existing scientific evidence that predation by stripers was having a terminal impact on SRFRCs and that there is plenty of peer reviewed science that totally eliminates stripers as a factor in the recent collapse in abundance of SRFRCs.

I’d definitely agree with two of your points:
1- The arguments “for” in this thread require an abandonment of critical thinking and a whole lot of emotional bias. Bong hit levels of induced emotion and comical blame shifting of predation impacts. Nothing more.
2- There’s a strange and curious fixation with pitting and evaluating the predation effects of stripers on Chinooks when this should be a non-issue. As stated there is, as I see it, potential future concern that if the foodweb in the delta continues to degrade, predation by stripers could further imperil the already imperiled SRWRCs. I do think that potential concern is legit, but it’s way premature to hit that panic button on that issue at present.

I do think it’s important to note from whom these comical emotion based claims, stated as absolute fact are coming from. It’s also important to note whom is presenting these predation on Chinook based discussions as valid points of contention. You striper afficiandos are the ones driving the emotion and selecting to hammer topics for which there is no valid opposing view into entire herds of dead horses.

I do appreciate your attempts to elevate the discussion into the realm of reason.
All that said, I’m not remotely convinced that your conclusions are any less emotionally based or more correct, than either those of Tony or Ned. For starters:
1- First PM’s that evolved in basin, then stray pinnipeds, then blue herons, then American Shad, and now cormorants may be having terminal impacts on the population abundance of Chinooks. Really?

Talk me through this rationalization if you will. The median estimate of age 3+ stripers in the delta was about 1 million fish if memory serves. Stripers generally begin to become piscivorous in the last half of their second year of life if memory serves, and head towards being nearly 100 percent piscivorous by age 3. Like Tony and Ned, in one breath you’re telling us that 1 million+++ piscivorous stripers are not having a terminal impact on Chinook abundance (again I buy that) but in the next breath what amounts to a few thousand cormorants are a legit concern? How exactly does one rationally connect those dots that lead to the cormorant conclusion? Where exactly does the crew go from here? Pelicans maybe? I dunno. I hope you can at least respect why I find these impact deflecting views all you striper guys have as being nothing short of comically bizarre.

2- It’s the pumps, the whole pumps and nothing but the pumps. Like Tony and Ned, you place the entirety of the blame on the water apologists. Nothing else seems to concern any of you striper afficiandos. You guys seem to be so single mindedly focused on the top of the food chain down effects (downplaying predation and placing the entire blame on the pumps) that you seem to be completely overlooking the fact that the entire delta foodweb has taken a dump.

Mike, I’ve NEVER seen you or any of the striper crew ever once start a thread about the foodweb concerns. Not here, not on Blanton’s board, not anywhere. Can you point out a single thread where you guys are discussing the invasive benthic filter feeder that blankets the delta in densities that run over 1000 per sq. meter that are volumetrically filtering near twice the entire water column of the delta hammering the plankton abundance down to nothing? Or maybe a thread where you’re discussing how the native copepods have been replaced by less numerous invasive copepods that are harder for the fish to exploit and have reduced nutrient valve? Or how you’ve got an invasive plant species that is both decreasing turbidity and transforming pelagic habitat to littoral habitat.

Are you either completely unaware of those issues or do you simply think they aren’t a concern? If the later, how the hell does one rationally discount those concerns out of hand to the point where you haven’t started a single thread making other striper huggers aware of those issues? Not once Mike, have I seen you or anyone else attempt bring those issues to light as a legit concern. If you’re willing to explain why that’s the case, I’m willing to listen.

All the pelagic species are being hammered down. TF shad, LF smelt, D smelt and age 0 and age 1 stripers. Your beloved stripers are extremely dependent of the other 3 pelagics to maintain and increase abundance. You’re never going to have abundant predators without abundant prey. And you’ll never have abundant age 2+ stripers if most starve to death because there’s no plankton and no copepods for them to feed on in their first months of life.

There’s no one from what I can tell except the linesides congregation, that actually seems to think that your Sea Monkey solution of just adding water and watching everything magically spring back to life is actually going to work.

The water apologists have been sucking water out of the delta for numerous decades. Massive amounts of water for the last 3 decades. The pumps like predation by stripers, have failed to extirpate a single native species over that lengthy timeline. How many more decades exactly is it going to take of no extirpation by the pumps for the linesides congregation to conclude that exclusively placing emotional based blame on the pumps is not going to solve the myriad of very real problems regarding the delta ecosystem?

If you're willing to cite and accept the science that rules out predation by stripers is not having a terminal impact on chinooks, how is it that you ignore the science derived by the same agencies that suggests that diversion and entrainment are likely not driving the POD?

[ycflyfisher]

Apologies in advance for not properly defining the accronyms I've used in this thread.

YOY= young of the year. Baby fish of the species in question.

POD= Pelagic organism decline: Term used to describe the recent precipitous and near total crash in population abundance of the 4 pelagics in the delta: Stripers, longfin smelt, delta smelt and threadfin shad.

SRWRC= Sac River winter run chinook.

SRFRC= Sac river fall run chinook.

SR =CV= species originating in the Sac River watershed.

Pelagic= fish species that depend on open water environs

Littoral= fish species that depend on near shore evirons or cover.

[JasonB]

Stripers and salmon CAN survive together.
Tony

Perhaps the bigger question is can striper and salmon anglers survive together

(no dog in the fight, nor horse in the race, but this has been an educational thread so far)
JB

[Frank Alessio]

Perhaps the bigger question is can striper and salmon anglers survive together

(no dog in the fight, nor horse in the race, but this has been an educational thread so far)
JB

Big fish eat little fish...Has anyone on this board ever actually found anthing in the stomach of an American Shad???

[Ned Morris]

OK ycflyfisher has effectively put this thread in Marianas Trench from his last posts. Not sure of the true depth or where it exactly goes. How I got classified as a Striper aficionado with my posts or made any comments on avian predators is beyond me. FYI - I fish for Stripers on Marin Coast maybe 3-4 times a year max. I did however get a great contact in Alosa out of this topic who is the real expert here and anxious to learn more.

Frank Allesio - Nope never kept a Shad in my life or a Pikeminnow either so I have not see stomach contents. I have only observed Pikeminnow effectively feeding on Salmon Fry on the Yuba below DeGuerre Dam during low water years at the culvert to the fish screen at the canal but that was 12 years ago and has been relocated to the first riffle so predation has been reduced.

[Frank Alessio]

I have kept a few shad in the past to put on the Smoker and they never have had anything at all in their Stomach....Pike Minnows are a whole different story....

[Mike R]

This topic is approaching dead horse levels as it has been covered ad nauseaum. One theme that is repeated is the conflict between what one faction believes and another faction has years of scientific data to support. I can't get out of my mind the mental picture of striper advocates looking like the little kid with cotton in his ears going lalalalalalalalalalalala while he ignores what is happening around him. Too many times I see an angler tell world renowned scientists they are flat-out wrong because they don't agree with their theories. .

I am surprised it took DFG/DFW to change the regs on stripers. Heck, it wasn't that long ago that we had a Striper Stamp. Are the stripers a major factor in salmonid decline? Not really. Are they a factor? Probably.

Being that so many of the ecological processes in the delta are interwoven. It is extremely difficult to single out one process and then determine it's impact regardless of the other processes around it.

As a matter of procedure and clarification, it has been my experience when dealing with the BDCP and POD that it is wise to think of salmonids separately than the other pelagic organisms.

See ya,
Mike

[ycflyfisher]

If anyone would prefer to read the science surrounding the Delta ecosystem as opposed to the emotion induced attempts at derailment, I'd keep Mike R's third paragraph in mind and start here:


http://www.water.ca.gov/iep/pod/synt..._workplans.cfm