Hooks

[Lee Haskin]

Hey Jay,

Interesting question.

I'm sorry, but have to strongly disagree with Tony. I fished J hooks for stripers, for 40 years, and my drop ratio was usually around 30% to 40% regardless of the J hook style and sharpness. Many of those years were spent fishing with Del Brown, and his results were the same. In fact, Del was so impressed with the jig hook for stripers, he switched over to an EC 413 for his famous Merkin, and used this hook for the last 3 years he fished for permit. He was convinced it made a difference, even on permit.

I have fished the EC 413 now for about 10 years, and the "dropped fish ratio" has been about 10%, or less! The results have been dramatic and consistant over a lot of fish-big and small.

Back in the '90's we hooked many fish over 20# at San Luis, and the results were even more dramatic on these big fish. Once I changed to the jig hook dropped big fish were rare.

One problem with J hooks is that since they are riding hook down, they are more apt to tick the rocks and dull. This does not happen as much with a hook-point-up style hook.

As a test, take a J hook and tie a leader to it. Do the same with the jig hook. Then take the hooks and pull them into a board, pulling on the leader, of course. Note the angle of the hook point in relation to the board. You will get a more direct pull of the point, in the wood, with the jig hook. With the J hook the hook point will be on a angle to the wood.
Some J hooks try to compensate for this "angle problem" by making the point curve slightly toward the eye/pull.
I hope this makes sense.

With the jig hook more fish are hooked in the corner of the mouth, with many "double pinned". Rarely do they cause injury, or come in contact with the gills.
However, I will sometimes get an eye puncture.

J hooks often resulted in an engulfed fly and contact with the gills.
(When you have the "right fly" stripers many times enhale the fly, rather than striking the fly.)

Example:
Two years ago I developed a Bullhead pattern for San Luis, and it proved deadly. However, I had trouble getting it to track properly when tied on a jig hook. I switched to a J hook just to test the pattern. About 1 in 5 stripers were injured, with the fly stuck deep in the gills. As a result I stopped using the fly until I could solve my problem with the jig hook.
Once I figured out how to make this pattern track properly with the EC 413, all of my critieria were met. No injured fish, no dulled hooks, fly tracked properly, fewer dropped fish.

I am so convinced the jig hook is better for stripers, than a J hook, I don't carry even ONE fly tied on a J hook, except gurglers and slideballs. (...And that is because I have no choice with these styles.)

It should be noted that EC 413 hooks are not usually sharp "out of the box" and need to be touched up. This might explain some of the comments above. Some complain about this feature, but it is a small detail IMHO, since most hooks need to be checked and sharpened sometime.

The EC 413 has a longer shank than some brands, which I like.

On another note: I don't tie Clousers with bucktail anymore. I prefer the increased action of craftfur. The wing sometimes fouls , but the results are worth this negative. You have to use soft flash like Motion Flash, rather than Krystral Flash, but it works well and there are over 100 colors!!

Yes, the Jury is "In" for me!!

Sorry for the long post.

$.02
Lee

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Here is the real world folks....as far as true capitalisms goes, we give the public what they want first, last and foremost....otheriwse we go south as far as a retail operation is concerned.

If the public wants pink jig hooks from Siberia, then we give it to them.

As far as what would work best I normally poll top anglers in an area like Mike Costello, Kevin Doran, Dan Blanton, Andy Guibord and Jim Christensen to see what they are using "this week".

There is no final answer because it is all changing daily.

[Tony P]

Lee,

This is what make fishing great, not everything works the same for each person. I know you have put more time on the water than I have & I respect everything you say but Jay & I have fished the jig hooks quite a bit together and both of us have noticed an increase in dropped fish. I don't know why, maybe technique or just unlucky I guess but those have been my findings & I do put quite a bit of time on the water but never enough . I complete agree with you about the jig hook riding point up but Jay was asking about the Clouser in the picture so if you were to tie that same fly on a J-hook it would still ride point up, if it doesn't the fly was not tied correctly.

Tony

P.S. Your Gurgler & Neutralizer are awsome.

[Hairstacker]

Lee, I've only fished 'em for a little while, so I only have vague, subjective impressions versus the experiences and amount of time you and Tony have amassed on these hooks.

I hear you about the need to sharpen them, as they are pretty dull out of the bag/box. I have never fished one of these without sharpening it and re-checking it from time to time. I want that hook point to dig in and hold onto my thumbnail the very instant I start to very lightly brush the hook point across.

[Jay Murakoshi]

OK Lee,

Let's see if I can reply to your email and posted message.

First, the merkin tied on the jig hook. Since it's limited in size, some of Del's merkins most of been a pretty good size fly. I never did see any so I really can't comment.
The ones I've tied for the permit in Australia were tied on the Trey Combs blue water Gamakatsu hook in size 2. Now, tying the eyes on the top of the hook shank makes the fly ride point up. Just out of curiosity, I had Phil cast a fly towards me on the flats and I watched as he retrived the fly.
The point was up, just like a jig hook.

As for dropping fish, I'm not sure if I'm dropping the fish or if they're just pulling on the flash tail. As for hooking into the lips, I have had fish throw the fly at the boat but I think that would happen with any style hook, Jig or J. Even the bass guys lose fish at the boat. By looking at the 60 degree jig hook, there is not alot of hooking gap in the 60 but if you looked at the photo I posted with both style hooks, there is definitly a huge difference in the gape from point of hook to the top of the eye. So why hasn't anyone swithched to the 30 degree hook.
I have tied a few flies on the EC 413 and had fish partially straighten out the hook. This was when i was fishing in Honduras for tarpon and snook.

Now for injury to fish. I think if anyone is worried about injury to the fishes mouth or within the area, why use a jig or a J hook. There's now a circle hook to prevent injury or inhalation of the bait or hook. I myself have tried the circle hook but I don't have enough patience to wait until the fish turns and sort of sets the hook himself. I've proven that when I"m out salmon fishing. Boy, I feel the grab or watch the line move and it's SETUP time.... Missed the fish

I myself like natural materials most of the time with the exception - when naturals aren't available. I have used alot of different synthetics over my 34 years of commerical tying and have recently gone to using "wig hair" for alot of my flies. This wig hair material can match craft fur, EP fiber, slinky fiber, etc...... It even comes multi-layered colors, braided (this is what I usse to tie my bass worm fly). But like I mentioned above, I still prefer naturals, I guess that's why I have 2,000 bucktails

It's interesting to see the differnce of opinions in using different hooks, materials, etc....

Like Bill mentioned, if someone wanted pink hooks and they were made he would probably stock them... Ahhh, an idea, a pink hook for the pink thing.

Jay

[Hairstacker]

Jay, I too wondered whether they were dropping off or just pulling on the flash tail but then I thought, no, some of those were pretty solid-feeling hits with the fish on briefly (or more than briefly in some cases ). Nevertheless, I think I'm going to start shortening the flashtails on my Clousers a bit. Right now they extend about an inch past the bucktail; I think I'll go down to less than half an inch past or maybe even flush with the end of the bucktail and see if that makes any difference.

[Darian]

Hi Jay,.... Maybe one of the reasons people haven't opted to use a 30 degree bend jig hook is that they weren't aware that they were available. I wasn't. The hook you tied on looks like a Gamakatsu. What is the model number I'd kinda like to try some out.

[Lee Haskin]

Hey Jay,

Great discussion.

Just because the J hook can be made to ride hook-up, does not mean it is "just like the jig hook". The relationship between the eye and the hook point, or pull point, is very different. A J hook tied with the lead eye on top, making it ride hook up, is still a J hook and will have the same fish-hooking & dropping issues.

Now a circle hook is a whole different animal primarily because of the way it is fished. By using the "hold" method, rather than striking, the hook tends to work back to the corner of the mouth. I wouldn't consider a circle hook a J hook primarily because of the way it is fished. Make sense?

I like the 30 degree bend, and I'm sure it will work.

The question is,
"which style moves the eye closer to the plane of the hook point without compromising the gape. The Gama jig hook has a shorter shank, and as a result, a 60 deg. bend might close the gape too much. However, the bend is much larger (perfect) in the Gama, so it might be a trade off as far as gape is concerned. Since the EC 413 has a longer shank the longer, sharper 60 deg. bend really has little or no impact on the gape. IMHO.

Jay, take the 30 deg. Gama hook point and draw a line on that plane, then draw a parallel line from the eye. Measure the distance between the two.
Do the same with the 60 deg. EC 413.
I think if you compare the two you will find the distance greater with the Gama.
The greater the distance, the greater the hook point angle distortion on the eye pull (hook set).
It might be impractical, but if the eye and the hook-point plane were in line, you would have the most effective hook setting arrangement.

The large bend of the Gama hook opens the gape, however, it moves the hook-point plane further from the eye.

One reason I haven't used many Gama hooks is cost. Is the Gama hook that much better to justify the extra cost over the EC 413?
No doubt it is a better quality hook! However, I'm not sure the hook setting geometry of the two hooks are comparable.

I guess for me, "if it ain't broke......", until someone tries a new hook style and finds it is better. The EC 413 is so much better than a J hook, I would have a hard time switching. (Again, I am only referring to stripers, and not the brawlers you tangle with in Mexico or Australia-Grin!)

Quite possibly the circle hook, and "hold" technique might be the best of all, for stripers. It is sure effective on tarpon, even with a J hook!!!
I didn't have trouble using the "hold" method for tarpon, but I have trouble using it for stripers!

I would not use an EC 413 for tarpon or even big snook. The 413 is not a "big game" hook, as you mentioned, and not super strong. However, I have never had a 413 hook straighten on stripers.

You might try switching hooks Jay, just to compare. You might have a better hook with the Gama 30 deg. There might be more to hook setting, and fish holding, than the explaination I've given.

Thank you for sharing your experiences with the Gama 30 deg. hook. Let's keep this subject open! After all Bill is waiting to place an order for a new hook-style, right now!!

...and Tony. Thanks for your imput. We are all different and many of our (my) opinions are probably very subjective, in the end.

Hey, use whatever hook gives you confidence!!! That's half the battle.

Cheers,
Lee

[David Lee]

I use the EC 413 , and I like it , for the most part .

I don't drop many fish w/ that hook .... BUT - YOU MUST flatten the barb . The hook WILL open if it hasn't penetrated past the barb and you really lean on a fish . I also use an Easy-Lap diamond hone on all my hooks , just to make sure they're sharp enough .

Haven't had any corrosion issues w/ them yet .

The price is right , too .

David