3-wts & under for the surf?

[Flyjunkie]

Mike,.... My note is an inquiry based on info from Marks note. We won't be really sure that the method I described is what is being done until confirmed.... Altho I prefer to figth a fish from the rod, it's not uncommon to stress the rod so much that it must be pointed at a fish to keep the rod from being broken in Baja saltwater fishing.

SOoooo,.... I'm not trying to be judgmental as much as confirm my thoughts on how the method works....

DARIAN,

I hear where you are coming from on Bowing the rod to the Fish..
However, I think Mike is eluding to pointing the rod directly at the Fish to avoid any pressure on the rod.. I Bow the rod to the Fish in Baja..(watching Neophytes down there doin' the "Orvis Pose" while tight into a red hot Dorado make me Cringe )
I stay "Down & Dirty" while fighting such fish, never left the rod over my head, always trying to stay at right angles to the fish..

If Mark is only targeting Perch with these Light rigs, and he seems to be cautious with the limits of such light gear I guess it's O.K.

Thought I have afew More Questions for Mark:

a Teeny 150 grain integrated head is for Fast 5 wt rods.. it's an rather Intense Overload for 3 wts. and lighter... How far down into the rod does the flex go with this Overloading??? I'm curious as to this because you mention you have Tendinitis and I am thinking to that overloading such light Rods and having them over-flex might be adding to this aliment of Yours...(The Light rod can't handle the load and transmits it down into your arm...??)

What size Tippet are you using??? I ask this because in Combs' "Bluewater Flyfishing" Trey mentions that 16lb. test can break a 10 wt. rod.. I'd hazard a guess that a 3wt. (or lighter) would be easy to break with 5 lb. test..

When you are Fighting the fish "from the Reel", how do you control the fish??? Without the Leverage of the rod, which is what it's for during the fight, how do you lead or turn the fish during the fight???

Mark, I'm not trying to rip you, it's just that some folks are out there Go way under gunned in their fishing.. I enjoy going lighter But there's a limit to when it basically seems ridiculous and it will do nothing but Harm to the fish, cause you cannot control and lead the fish during the fight...
Hell in the Surf I originally fished with an 8wt... But nowadays I'm mostly fishing a 6wt..(except when the Winter swells are up, then I bump it up to my 7wt...)
I'm there with Paul, when targeting Leopard Sharks, i won't use my 6wt.. you'll never get the upper hand in the fight and all you'll do is get railed and break the shark off... Minimum I'll target Sharks with is my 7wt.. (it's a Sage Rplxi ) , I can control the shark with the 7wt.. I couldn't with anything lighter...

If you are targeting just Surfperch, I'll give you credit there with the 3wts...
Maybe down the road the new technologies will be available to us Flyfishers & I might try a lighter rod in the Surf (a 3wt.) But since the chance to hook something Bigger is always there in the Surf... I'll stick with the trusty 6wt...

Thought I am enjoying reading your posts about your methods, you certainly are on top of what you are doing....

DEAN ~~

[k.hanley]

Say Hey Mark,
Perhaps you remember back to when you took my surf clinic (waaaay back before Jay and I taught together). I still believe today, what I presented back then, gear choices for the surf are more about dealing with habitat demands rather than species specifics. In other words my lightest surf rod is a 6-weight. It keeps me in the game longer on any given day. It handles the heavy hydraulics better, it handles the wind better, and it allows me to better adapt to a full range of fly styles to work with (weight and size). Plus, you are certainly able to work with a greater variety of line designs with the 6-weights are larger outfits. Anyway it's fascinating to watch your growth over the years. Stay safe out there buddy. Glad to see you enjoying this great game of the surf!
Cheers, Ken

[Darian]

Hi Dean,.... It sounds like I confused you with the response about pointing the rod at the fish. My point was the same as Mikes. I don't "bow" to the fish when they jump, as a general rule....

I was referring to handilng of fish (Tuna types) in close quarters. Such as, at the boatside when a sudden lunge will place your rod tip against the gunwale if you don't jam it into the water for dampening, avoiding a clash with the gunwale and getting the fish under control. It seems to me that control doesn't occur until the rod comes back into play, under those circumstances. The fish is more directly worked from the reel.

At any rate, If you're playing the fish off the ree;, directly, by pointing the rod at the fish and using a heavy line, there is no consideration of what direction the fish takes. You have the same affect as handlining. The levereage is provided by the crank (gear ratio) and drag on the reel. I guess I don't have to tell anyone here, how effective this method is....

Maybe not as much fun but, if you want to catch some fish for the pot, that's one of the best ways to do it.

Hey Darian,

To answer your question regarding line size, as I mentioned earlier, the Redington RS2 3-wt really feels like a 4- or 5-wt - it's an extremely fast rod & I'm not sure if Redington intended the rod to function that way. The Teeny 150 gr was one of the few lines that worked out beautifully for that rod. SA 8-wt Type IV shooting heads cut back to about 25-ft also work well with this rod. It may sound like these lines would overload the rod, but they barely do! (go figure!) I love the RS2's because they have such fast tapers & shoot heads like cannons - I've yet to find another product that's come close in action to the RS2's. Unfortunately, Redington discontinued the series over a year ago & followed up with the RS3 series which I think is much softer (& forgiving); compared to the RS2's, the current RS3's are closer in action to what they're rated to (the RS3 3-wt actually feels like a 3-wt instead of a 4- or 5-wt).

As far as my tendinitus, I got that years ago when I was fishing 5-wts & up. I typically log anywhere between 600-800 hrs per year in the surf with the fly rod, a few hours here & there, weekends, sometimes mid-week, C&R'ing between 2000-3000 fish annually (about 90-95% surfperch). It all adds up & eventually wears down my arm regardless of how well I can cast or how properly matched the line is to the rod. But I love the sport so much, not to mention the beauty & tranquility of the NorCal coast that goes with it - it's all part of the game.

Consequently, I've been forced to look for alternatives for fly fishing the surf & have gravitated towards the ultra-light rods which have really helped in easing the painful aggravation. I haven't had any problems since I went to the 3-wts & under as far as casting goes. But as you may know, once you get the ailment, it takes a very loooooong time to heal. The muscle tissues are sensitive to any constant or repetitive loading of the forearm, whether from fighting a fish, swinging a golf club (another aggravating recreational activity of mine!) or performing any other task that strains the forearm (heck, even something as simple as picking up a coffee cup can be excruciating!). That's good enough motivation for me to fish with the light gear & haul in big fish as quickly as possible, whether caught on an 8- or 00-wt. Believe me, after all these years it still hurts my arm like hell whenever a big fish latches on!

As I mentioned earlier, I typically use strong & stiff mono for the tippets on a multi-drop leader system:




I'll use 10 or 12 lb test mono when casting small flies (#12-16) featuring small-eye hooks. I've used this terminal set-up for the 00- to 8-wt rods & they've performed quite well for me over the past several years. I haven't experienced any problems with the tippets (or big fish) breaking rods as you've described (knock on wood) - I'd be interested to learn more about how these have happened. Sure, I've busted rods through some really dumb operator-induced errors, which may sound familiar to those who've done it before (like leaving the rod/reel on the car top while driving out from the beach parking lot, accidently closing car doors across exposed rod tips, etc..DOH!). I've also had my fair shair of broken rod tips on a variety of 0- to 7-wt rods after they've been whacked by weighted flies numerous times from casting too tightly in breezy weather (the flies basically become high-speed BB's or bullets when you think about it). Talk about putting the kabosh on a fishing trip when no spare rods are available!

As far as fighting big fish on the reel, the line system I currently use has been sufficiently strong & versatile to keep the fish from getting into the backing; I've been able to turn heads of some pretty big stripers without resorting to the beach sprints or zig-zags, as others have experienced. As one may surmise, the Amnesia absorbs a lot of the load in the shooting head set-ups. Depending on the rod & reel combo, I'll use anywhere between 60-90 ft of the stuff & it's taken a good steady pull from a few +30 in. stripers before the drag lets out line. As amazing as it may seem, I've yet to have had fish of this size get into my backing on the 0-wt. I don't know whether these fish were just lethargic or maybe just not up to running out past the surfline. Practically all of the stripers I've caught in the surf, whether on a 0- or 8-wt, have grabbed the flies within 10 yds of me - heck, I've even inadvertently kicked or bumped into a few while wading in knee-deep surf along the shoreline during gray light conditions (scared the beejezus out of me!). But as I've said before, I consider these pretty average fighting fish, pound for pound, compared to other reel-burning saltwater species - in my experience, they're really not that difficult to stop in their tracks. Like many others, I prefer to fight fish with the rod, rather than the reel, but I have to rely on other techniques (similar to Sosin's approach) to subdue the big boys when the occasion calls for it (which is usually quite infrequent).

These are all excellent thought-provoking questions. I'm glad you & others are inquiring. I apologize if I sound a little blunt at times, but I'm trying to convey what I've learned & experienced thus far, even if it goes against the grain of conventional fly fishing wisdom & practice. I posted the original question about 3-wts & under because I haven't read much or talked to anyone about what others are doing outside of the local SF/MB area other than through this & other forums. I'm just absolutely amazed & enlightened at the variety of tackle & techniques many of you are employing for chasing big fish on fly gear, both locally & abroad. I think the majority of fly anglers are gun-shy about trying lighter outfits because of what they may have read or experienced elsewhere. The collective common sense of the angling community seems to be driven by what's written or reported in the field. I grew up fishing in Hawaii (mostly on Oahu) & pursued a variety of gamefish with tackle that the "locals" consider quite normal, such as 2- to 8-lb test spinning outfits, for catching & subduing large bonefish, trevally, ladyfish, skipjack tunas & a wide assortment of other Hawaiian fish. These saltwater species (& others found elsewhere in tropical waters) definitely leave many West Coast fish behind in the dust in terms of overall strength & speed (pound for pound). The early experience I gained in battling these island fish with the ultra-light spinning gear gave me the confidence to experiment with light-weight fly gear. I think it takes this kind of exposure to really comprehend & appreciate the wide scope of what's possible in the fly fishing world. But that's just my own perspective & maybe others can relate.

Otherwise, what angler can resist the undulating bend of a light-weight fly rod, like this 00-wt...




...produced by the humble (but often feisty) surfperch that are willing to give a good tug on a fly or two, like these?




TL's

Mark

Hey Ken,

Yes I do remember the early days of learning about the surf zone from you. It kind of reminded me of the Obi Wan-Luke Skywalker scene in Star Wars where Obi-Wan is teaching Luke how to use the force to wield a lightsaber with the blast shield helmet over Luke's head. Thank god you didn't make us put buckets over our heads to "feel the grab" & learn the ways of fishing the surf zone! (though I did wonder when you were going to whip out the lightsaber from your rod tube ). Just havin' more fun with ya!

As usual, I think you're right on the money regarding the choice of tackle - the targeted species should dictate the type of gear employed over the prevailing habitat, but the latter is still an important part of determining what fly outfit works best for the environment being fished.

Hope to cross lines with you again sometime, big guy!

best,

Mark

[lee s.]

MFD,
Note the mention of the spread spool.
Ya know something? Usually the same guys that can't grasp the requirements to safely and quickly land a fish on light gear (whether hooked on porpose or by accident ) and look down their noses at those that do and try to instill THEIR views on the issue, are the same persons who will question WHY do you want to toss a 10wt at small LM's when the only real challenge there is to get'em out of the WEEDS....("heck, WE use 7wts for LM's.)
To each their own. Use the gear YOU desire and learn to use it to it's limitations. Light gear in the hands of a skilled angler is quicker and safer and deadlier only if desired, than a telephone pole in the hands of the inexperienced.
.....lee s.

[Darian]

Hmmmm,.... Ya know, Lee, I've re-read all of the posts on this subject and don't find any real disrepect offered and don't see where Mark has taken it that way. It probably doesn't mean much to you but I'm not sure I agree with the tone of your post.... I do agree with what was already said and respected, "....to each his own."

I was enjoying this discussion and learning something to boot. Instead of trying to cut things off, try to contribute something. Understanding results when discussion takes place.

[jbird]

I believe the over arching message here is this method is suitable for advanced anglers. I also have realized that (which wasnt entirely clear on the original post) that Mark is targetting a species that light gear is adiquate for. When I saw that striper next to that little rod, my original reaction was to cringe, not discounting that it was an amazing catch but that is just too much fish for that rod if that was the intended quarry.
I dont blame him for wanting to match gear to his target...in this case, surf pearch. Sounds like a kickinthepants to me

I will add that I also believe it is not a good example to teach or even condone these "big game, light rod" tactics to novice anglers. This technique in the wrong hands equals dead fish, plain and simple.

Jay

PS To all anglers who are relitively new to the sport..."DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!" When you get into the world of larger fish that require some kind of drag system, play the fish quickly and release them immediately, its better for the fish and it sets a good axample for folks that might be watching.

[k.hanley]

Say Hey Mark,
I think you mis-read my response. Or I don't understand yours? I said habitat does first dictate gear choice not the fish. If you can't handle the hydraulics, and the wind, or deliver the various food items, then it doesn't matter what species you are trying to catch. You need to first get the food to the target and keep it there. I firmly believe that habitat concerns just aren't understood well enough by many folks who enter the surf game.

Another important note not being handled in this discussion is the element of leader/tippet breaking strength. It doesn't matter if you have a 12-weight rod or a 3-weight rod in your hands, if your tippet breaks at 6 pounds then it breaks at 6 pounds (nothing can change that fact by varying rod ratings). The difference is most important on how the rod handles heavier tippets and bursts of pressure. A level sustanied load can be handled on very light tackle indeed, but you must be very competent in applying the field techniques necessary to work the light tackle in a manner that doesn't over tax the gamefish.

I respect your journey. As for me, I don't think it's practical for an overall approach (I know you aren't claiming that). As technology advances the strength-to-weight ratio in rods gets redefined, we see that all the time. Where will this technology take you next...who knows?

Personally for now I'll continue to promote 6-weights thru 8-weights as valuable tools for exploring the total surf zone experience along our west coast.
Cheers, Ken (Obi Wan)

[PaulC]

I think a bit of the discussion that has also been missin has been the rod ratings. If its a 3wt but feels more like a 5wt, then its a 5 wt.
For instance, some rods can be more stiff in 1 or 2 rod sizes than their competitor. Echo comes to mind.

Rod ratings are definitely relative based on the modulus of the fiber used by the vendor.
My winston 2wt really is a slow-medium 2wt and probably has no place in the surf in my opinion. I have no idea how corrosion resistant it is for the first part.
I've heard the sage 2wts now are much faster and probably could tackle things I wouldn't consider on the winston.

Granted I fish a 6wt in wind where others may opt to go a rod size higher. Its all about what you are comfortable casting with. Being a part-time climber I have the same issues as Mark and try to use the lighter rods when feasible (especially when I'm climbing alot).

That being said, I don't think any of us are looking down our noses at Mark or his adventures. Most of the guys posting in this thread are seasoned anglers in the salt. I know I spend 100+ days a year out there and I'm sure Ken has me beat hands down.
I don't think anyone here posting is "inexperienced".

The scientist in me is curious and having not run this experiment personally all I can do is ask questions.
I hope we can keep the discussion open.
As Darian said, I'm learning something....

-Paul

"The only bad preconception is one that you hold onto"