3-wts & under for the surf?

Hey Bill,

Thanks again for the info on lines. I've tried the Teeny 150 gr on the 3-wt Redington RS2 - works like a champ when the surf doesn't have a lot of left/right swing to it. I haven't tried the Rio WF4F/S yet - looks like a good candidate for a fast 2- or 1-wt. Any thoughts on other running line products (besides Amnesia) for the light fly rods?

Scaling the flies down with the tackle seems to be important for getting the light fly rods to cast well - big, bushy patterns generally don't fair well. I typically cast a triple-fly tippet for the surf, sometimes up to 5 on a dropper-type tippet when the winds & surf are cooperative (oh yeah, these produce multiple hook-ups & fish as well!).

I understand the shop side of the sporting business & realize your need to support your customers in the best way possible without compromising your business. I wouldn't advocate that a newbie to the surf use anything less than a 5- or 6-wt in the surf without getting up on the learning curve first. Shops like yours help us fly fishing enthusiasts figure out how get the most out of the fly fishing experience whereever our journeys take us.

Thanks again - appreciate your help & the great community on this board!

Mark

[PaulC]

Hey Mark,
Hope my previous post didn't come across as direct criticism. Its just my limited observation down here.
I'm really curious to your technique on getting the fish in quickly while on reel with such small flyline. Are you running with the fish and turning it into the beach in a lateral zigzag fashion. I've yet to get a surf striper so i'm not too sure how they run.
Sharks out here run straight out not laterally, so you really have to pump the fish back in.
I think if you're getting em in within 5 minutes on tackle that light, you're doing a fine job!
I agree on the rod manufacturers listening to the community on new materials, etc.
Composites are a tricky business, but some of the stuff we are currently using in aerospace look extremely promising to taking fly fishing to the next level. Cost is currently still a bit prohibitive, but as with all composite materials, the price drops as time progresses and advances in manufacturing are made.
M55J and K13 are high cost materials but blow doors on what we are currently using in industry. That coupled with piezoelectric active damping (currently used in tennis and raquetball gear) could provide a stick that performs like a dream.
Its not too far off...I'm sure the rod manufacturers are looking into it.
If they are not....maybe we should be.
-Paul

Oh yeah, one very important element I've found in fishing with light fly tackle in the surf: use the strongest mono possible in the line system for retrieving your shooting head or sinktip when a fly snags in the kelp or rocks. The stronger lines also allow you to fight the bigger fish directly on the reel (rather than the rod) & minimizes the amount of time the fish is under stress. I'd just break the line or let the hook straighten out if I couldn't bring a fish to hand within 15 minutes (the tendinitus in my casting arm would kill me!).

For the terminal tippet, I often use the heaviest mono I can thread through the hook, usually 15-lb to 20-lb green Maxima (or other stiff mono). I also use good, stiff 40 to 80 lb Berkley Big Game for the dropper line to keep the lighter, multi-fly tippets from tangling with each other - works like a champ on all rods & shooting/sink tip lines. As for fly reels, the Ross Rhythm series has been a real winner for me, very simple bushing & drag system - no fuss or muss if sand gets in, just pop the spool out & dunk it in clean surf (I soak it freshwater with a little dishsoap overnight, then rinse & let it dry after each surf session - good to go the next time out).

If I do compromising anywhere in the line system, it's usually in the hook style for the flies I tie - light-wire #6-12 type hooks straighten out pretty easily if I'm hung up on debris or if I really don't want to mess with that +40 in. leopard shark or +50 lb sting ray. Hey, the fish in the surf around these parts aren't line shy, so why not step up the terminal tackle? (we're just chasing surfperch here, not some spook-prone permit or bonefish!)

TL's

Mark

Hey Paul,

Thanks for the feedback & providing the great info on the state of fly rod material technology - maybe there's a niche market for "nano" fly rods that use some of that fluffy nanotechnology stuff I keep reading about

As far as fighting stripers in the surf, most of the fish I've encountered in the surf don't run that far out once I clamp down on the reel - I often get my palms & fingers whacked by the reel handle as line lets out in spurts. Interestingly, the stripers I've caught on 5-wts & higher tended to put up more of the beach sprinting runs - I probably didn't know how to fight them back them since I usually left the drag pretty loosey-goosey at the time (I know better now!).

Otherwise, I'm not sure if it's just me or maybe the linesides I've tackled tend to be more docile than what's perceived elsewhere. Pound for pound, I'd rate them at around a 5 or 6 on a 1-10 fighting scale, with 10 being in the bonefish or trevally category (surfperch, eh, about a 2-3 depending on size) for the typical fly rod setup. But that's just my personal experience. I'd love to check out the pull from the other species down your way.

Oops, the clock's ticking...got another appointment in the surf to attend.

Check back with you all later & thanks again for the great info,

Mark

[jbird]

This is pretty interesting stuff. You do know what youre doing, I'll give you that. Everything youve said about fighting fish is right on with my experience of incidental LARGE fish. Tho I never purposely undergun, I have landed many large incidental salmon while steelhead fishing with a 7wt. And it can be done fairly efficiently with the proper technique. It does take a good deal of skill and a lot of feel to pull it off. I dont recommend undergunning to 95% of the flyfishing world...But if you know what youre doing, go for it

Jay

[Darian]

Hmmmm,.... Kinda sounds like you're using the system developed/used by Mark Sosin for bluewater fishing.... The rod is not the principal tool used to land these fish. If I understand correctly, they're fought mainly from the reel, direct, with the rod pointed at the fish or snag when under intense pressure. This allows one to use a strong line to fight the fish (similar to hand lining) Does the reel have a disk drag

Since you say you've had to scale down the related equipment, I'm curious about casting on windy days (....there's always a bunch of those at the beach). What kind of distances do you reach when casting with such a light outfit

Interesting technique.... not one I care to pursue, however.

[Hairstacker]

To me, one of the joys of hooking a good fish with the tackle I'm using is feeling the rod bending and working the fish. It would seem to me that if you're using tackle so light that it forces you to fight the fish directly from the reel, that it wouldn't be as much fun with the rod taken out of the equation. At that point, I have to ask, what is the point? Maybe I'm missing something here. . . .

[Darian]

Mike,.... My note is an inquiry based on info from Marks note. We won't be really sure that the method I described is what is being done until confirmed.... Altho I prefer to figth a fish from the rod, it's not uncommon to stress the rod so much that it must be pointed at a fish to keep the rod from being broken in Baja saltwater fishing.

SOoooo,.... I'm not trying to be judgmental as much as confirm my thoughts on how the method works....

[Hairstacker]

Likewise, to each his own, as I always say.

Hi Mike, Darian,

Surfperch is my primary target for the surf, comprising over 90% of my catch. There's nothing more fun than experiencing the all-day perch bite when just about every cast results in a grab or tug. The noodle rods are more than adequate for these species & do an excellent job of handling +16 in. (+2 lb) fish. However, for those rare occasions when Mr. Striper or Mr. Leopard shows up, these rods do have their limits. The Redington RS2 3-wt is about as low as I can comfortably go for fighting 30-40 in. fish directly with the rod (the RS2 3-wt rod actually feels closer to a 4-wt or a slow 5-wt, but it's rated to what it is).

The Sage 0-wt TXL has enough toughness & stiffness to manhandle stripers up to about 24 in. - for the bigger fish, I've let the reel & line system do the bulk of the fighting if the rod begins to feel overpowered. In my experience, it's pretty rare to consistently hook other species when exclusively targeting surfperch as often as I do, but it does happen once in a great while - stripers, leopard sharks & other large fish are not my first choice when fishing the surf with the light rods. It's a real sphincter puckering experience whenever these bad boys show up - the tackle works well if you know how to handle the equipment when the need arises!

The Ross Rhythm series of reels have disc drag systems - they've worked like champs for all my rods from 00- to 8-wt. I like them because they're so easy to clean & maintain (no internal gizmos to worry about getting jammed by sand & grit). The Rhythm 3 & 3.5 did a nice job hauling up a good number of tail- & butt-hooked sockeye on the Kenai for me last summer on 6/7- & 7-wt RS2's (that was really sporty if you know how sockeyes react when they're hooked anywhere else other than the jaw! ).

As I mentioned before, the primary surf species I'm targeting is surfperch - you have to admit, they're pretty low on the fighting scale. That's where the fly light tackle really makes sense. It's the saltwater version of crappie or bluegill fishing. Nearly all of the grabs or tugs I've experienced from the surfperch have occurred within less than 10 yds, oftentimes near the tip of my rod if I'm working the shorebreak or sandy flats. Long casts don't really seem to be that essential if I can locate fishy water & beach structure close to shore. As far as casting goes, I've found that 60 ft is typical for the 0-wt using the T8 & 15 lb Amnesia, longer casts to 80 ft for the stiffer rods under relatively calm surf & wind conditions. Casting downwind or across the wind (with the wind blowing into the casting arm) is remarkably achievable with the light outfits. For onshore headwinds above 15 kts, one may as well stay home or look elsewhere to fish.

When properly matched to the rod, I've found that the shorter shooting heads exhibit outstanding sensitivity for detecting the faintest grab or tug. I never realized how many fish I was missing on the swing or during the retrieve until I began fishing with the lighter fly tackle. It's a drastic change from the heavier shooting heads & sink-tip integrated lines (250-350 gr.) I used when I fished with stouter rods early on. There's definitely no problem with staying in touch with the flies when fishing the 3-wt & under fly tackle - the strike response is near-instantanous. One interesting thing I've discovered is that the Amnesia appears to "behave" better with the shorter (lighter) shooting heads, possibly because it doesn't load or wind-up as much compared to the longer, heavier heads used with the stiffer rods (Amnesia behaving in the surf environment - now there's a contradiction!).

As has been said, to each his own. This style of angling is certainly not for everyone, but it does offer a different approach to tackling a variety of surf species with lightweight fly gear if one so chooses.

thanks again for all the great feedback!

Mark