3-wts & under for the surf?

For the past year or so, I've been experimenting with a variety of light fly rods (3-, 2-, 1-, 0- & 00-wts) in the local San Francisco/Monterey Bay area surf for targeting surfperch, jacksmelt, stripers & other local saltwater game. Has anyone tried similiar tackle for surfperch or other West Coast species? Any particular type of shooting head, running line or sink-tip intermediates found to work best with the lighter rods in saltwater?

thanks,

Mark

[Jay Murakoshi]

Mark,

In my 34 years of fly fishing the surf, my recommendations is to leave the 3 wt at home. Too many factors come into play.

The first being the hydralics of the surf zone. You have incoming, outgoing forces of the water, you'll have a big problem if a slight breeze is blowing, lot's of debris in the water. If you hook into a 150lb ball of kelp the rod could be toast. You'll find, the salt water game is 180 degrees different from fresh water. The fish out there have a bad attitude and are alot stronger than freshwater fish.

I have use 5 and 6 wt's out there but still prefer a 7 wt with a type VI shooting head. But like I say, "to each his own - try it you might like it"

Jay

[lee s.]

We have done a lot of wierd stuff with our 3wt.....halibut to around 8#, bat rays to about 35#, steelies to around 12#, stripes to around 8#, roosters to around 5#, carcinero, needle fish, etc. Some on purpose and some by accident. Spread the spool on one reel!
One of the most challenging was to hook a ballyhoo on a #10 shad bug. The beak would dang near always pop the bug up and out of the water.
We had a set of cut down #8 heads for the rod, a L3F, and a WF4F/SIII. The lead we tried was more trouble than it was worth. But NOW with the introduction of T-8 for shooting heads, even more opportunities abound!
....lee s.
PS - Like Jay says, try it....ya never know.

Hey Jay,

Great to hear from you. I really dig your innovative fly patterns for the surf - love that Llama sandcrab! I bow my head in reverence to you & the many other great saltwater flyfishing legends who helped pioneer the sport of flyfishing the surf zone (a big hello to Ken Hanley!) .

You're absolutely right about the difficulties posed by the surf when fishing with light fly tackle. I've been working on how to make the most out of the featherweight fly gear under some very excruciating circumstances. Talk about tackling fish with bad attitudes, I C&R'd this cow at Pt. Reyes earlier this year using a 0-wt Sage TXL:



(photos of other stripers caught on the 0-wt are posted at http://fishingboard.gruk.net/viewtopic.php?t=45)


Hey Lee,

Thanks for the info on what lines you've been trying for the 3-wt - what type of running lines have worked for the shooting heads? Any thoughts on how much backing? 35# bat rays on a 3-wt, now that'll empty some line from your reel!:P


thanks again,

Mark

[Flyjunkie]

MARK,

Curious as to How Long you fought that Striper on the 0 wt.??? I can't see you having any leverage on that fish with such a ultra light rod.. You might have let the striper go after the picture, but was it fought Soo Long the Lactic acid Levels in it's system where soo high it merely swam off a distance and then expired???

Such Small weight rods do not have the backbone to put the Brakes on such big Fish, besides the rods will be extremely overloaded with the heavy heads and bigger flies one often has to use.. thus causing complete structural failure over the long term...

Besides, the talks I've had with Rod manufacturers & Reps are always the same.. this Kind of Fishing Isn't what they made these ultralights for.. and the damage you will most certainly do to the rods fishing them in such fashion are viewed as Abuse by the Companies and will void their warranties...(for the Most part)

I'm in 100% agreement with Jay, leave the little Rods at Home and use Fast 5wts or higher.. Matched to the size of Fish and weight of head, plus Fly size you intend to fish...

using such small rods in the Ocean is like going to a Gun fight with a Knife.. you're way under gunned......

DEAN ~~

[jbird]

I'm with Dean here. To each his own on rod abuse, but be fair to the fish. I personally dont understand the David and Goliath mentality out there in the fishing world. Like Larry Dahlburg catching a sailfish with 4# test....Why? It only harms the fish and often times mortally.

J

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Hi Mark,

I would say that a 6 weight outfit is light for most in the surf even though the fish can be small at times.

More probably use 8 weights in our surf.

We wade at Christmas Island with 10 weights throwing large salt water poppers to Giant Trevally.

I think what you are doing is really interesting.

Personally I can't barely cast the flies I would use in the surf with a 6 weight.

The smallest fast sinking line I can find to stock in the shop (and we do have them in stock daily) is a Rio full length WF4S type#6.

One of the smallest sinktips is a Rio WF4F/S 15' Type 3.

The smallest "Teeny type" sink-head is probably a 150 grain that has about a 25' head that sinks pretty fast.

I can imagine a fast action 9' #3 line rod with any or all of those lines being OK for smaller flies in the surf.

I guess where I am going is at a fly shop we have a serious responsibility when we are outfitting people so the smallest outfit we would recommend to a customer for Pacific surf would be a 9' #6 fast action fly rod.

If it got around that we sold someone a 3 weight outfit for the surf and he showed up at one of Jay and Ken's surf seminars with it we would get laughed out of the county and there would go the reputation that I have worked to build for 40 years.

Now if he said he already fishes with a 6 weight in the surf and wants to try a 3, well that's OK.

[PaulC]

I fish the surf quite a bit down here in SoCal. The lightest rig most of us fish out here are 5-6wts. I have a 6wt Xi2 that I use for corbina, etc. in the summer. I have very little chance quickly landing a large leopard or smoothound in surf with that outfit. Targetting those, I go with an 8wt at bare minimum in order to get them in quick and release.

I fish a 2wt for trout and have landed some large fish despite the light tackle. The scenario there is different however. Properly turning the fish sideway in the current, one can use the river to their advantage and zig zag the trout in as fast as the guy that holds his ground with a 5 wt.
The main reason I use the lighter tackle there is not for the "fun" factor, but the fact the rod has better damping when used with very light tippets (7X) and small bugs (22 and below). It also allows for a more delicate presentation IMHO, and I do not feel it impacts my release times as opposed to fishing with my 5 wt. I just have to move more...

That being said the surf surge presents a different animal where beaching the fish for a quick release really requires one to rely on the backbone of the rod. There was a guy down south this summer catching corbina on a 2wt. I believe it was mentioned it took him 20 minutes to land the fish.
At that point, its basically a floater and dead tired.

Herein lies the problem, C&R is great, but if you have to fight the fish for extended amount of time, you might as well keep it and eat it.

In addition, the functionality reason of why I use a 2wt in situations for trout just isn't there for the surf. There is no advantage to the lighter tackle, and the only reason to use it is for the challenge and fun factor.
This, however, is clearly not in the best interest of the fish and the C&R survival rate.

My personal opinion, is that it is best that one errs on the side of conservatism as far as rod size goes in the surf. If I found it took me too long to get a certain fish in with a rod size. I would pull a bigger stick out of the arsenal and use that instead.

This is all my opinion, however. I'm a firm believer in "to each his own".
Maybe there are some great techniques to using ultra-light tackle in the surf and still maintaining a quick release time.
I'd definitely love to hear more about how you guys are dealing with larger surf species on light tackle to get em in quick.
Having never tried it, I cannot offer any criticism only my uneducated preconceptions based on 6wt experience with sharks.

-Paul

[David Lee]

Mark -

First of all , welcome to the board and congrats on those fine fishes you've been catching !!

I have not used gear that light in the surf (or anywhere , for that matter ....) , but for what you're doing ... I think the T-8 and 15 lb. mono is about as good as you're going to find .

Remember - ONLY YOU can set the 'rules' . While I don't agree w/ tackle that light , it isn't breaking any law .... so do what YOU feel does the trick . I think that's the beauty of flyfishing .

David

Dean & J,

That particular striper was mostly fought on the reel (not the rod) before being quickly photo'd, resuscitated & released in the surf in about 10 minutes - yeah, it really stretched out the Amnesia really well (didn't have any problems with the mono kinking or coiling for a long time afterwards!). As with many others stripers I've C&R'd in the surf, whether caught on an 8-wt or 0-wt, the fish was very lively & swam off under a full head of steam - of course, it could have gone belly up just out of sight past the surfline, but it was quite healthy as it shot off into the deep. I don't have any scientific studies to back it up, but the stripers I've encountered in the surf are a lot tougher & resilient than most folks are led to believe or give credit to the species, IMHO. I don't know if the same is true for those caught in freshwater or the delta since I don't fish there much.

I don't specifically target stripers when using the light-weight rods - unfortunately, incidental catches of these & other species besides surfperch are part of the experience (it's a big ocean!). I'd love to hear or read more about the studies or surveys regarding the mortality rate of C&R'd stripers if anyone has any good references to cite. Regardless of tackle or method employed, these & other fish deserve the minimal amount of abuse if they're to be released after being caught. Out of curiousity, just how long has it taken others to land a +30 in. striper on a 7-, 8-wt or heavier rod, whether fishing in fresh or saltwater - less than 5 min on average? Practically all of the stripers under 30 in. that I've C&R'd in the surf have been fought & revived within that length of time - lord knows I've had my share of LDR's with this species!

As far as the light rods go, I've had to scale down everything between the fly & the reel to allow the rods to perform within their design load envelope. How to do this? Experimentation! Most rod manufacturers or reps aren't going to recommend novel or unconventional ways for the customer to fish with their products, nor should one expect them to honor their warranties when the customer uses the product outside of its intended application. Perhaps the fly rod market is poised where the spinning rod industry was about 25-30 yrs ago when fast, high-strength ultra-light composite rods entered the scene & became more mainstream. Hey, what an untapped marketing potential for light-weight, high-strength saltwater fly rods (Sage, Loomis, other rod mfrs - are you listening?)

Is there a limit to these noodle rods? You betcha! Would I use the same noodle rods for bonefish, roosterfish, trevally or other warm-water gamefish similar in size (but not strength) to the West Coast surf denizens? Probably not - but there are folks out there who are doing it, whether we agree with their tactics or not. Heck, the blue water angling community once scoffed at the idea of fly fishing for sailfish, dorado, tuna & other big game species not very long ago until the fly fishing industry responded & developed the tackle to support the activity with the assortment of equipment out there today.

The point is, the sport of saltwater fly fishing is evolving, as does many other recreational activities over time. In recent years, I've met other anglers who have done the "old school" style of saltwater fly fishing, but have found ways of pushing the envelope & are migrating toward some really amazing angling techniques & equipment. More power to them!

Who knows - maybe others are right that I'm just wasting my time, $'s & equipment pursuing some pointless, destructive sporting activity while inadvertently wiping out entire fish stocks single-handedly. OK, I'm gettin' off the soapbox on this subject so others can take the stage.


thanks for the input!

Mark