pegging beads

[matooka]

Although contraversial, pegging is an effective method of catching fish! However, depending on the distance between the hook and the bead, and the timing of the hook set, pegging will do damage to the fish if it isn't performed correctly. Even so, there are no guarantees! I learned pegging on the Lower Sac from a reputable fly fishing guide. Since, every time I fish the Lower Sac, my primary method of catching fish begins with a pegged bead! What I've learned is that the hook needs to be within an inch from a # 12 hook. Anymore, and your chances of hooking the fish unethically(snagging) increases. Unfortunately, the closer you attempt to tie the hook to the bead, the more difficult the knot becomes to tie. Use hemostats! A smaller hook is less likely to do damage than a larger #10 or #8. Being tardy on the hook set also increases the possibility of damaging the fish! Unfortunately, I speak from experience. Bottom line, I've damaged fish with larger, traditional nymphs as well!
Am I a purist? Obviously not! Do I have a passion for catching fish with a fly rod? Absolutely! Inside the lip or outside the lip, fish on! To each there own!

[Darian]

In the replies, so far, there seems to be a need to categorize between being a "purist" or not. Personally, I could care less about that need. Nor, do I want to spend time on that aspect. We're only discussing a method here...... Keep in mind that this is purely for the sake of discussion....

There is a question about this method that still remains unanswered for me. That question is, when does hooking a fish outside the mouth become snagging Is it outside of the mouth, altogether, or outside of a one inch radius around the mouth or some other measurement It seems to me that all of the arguments put forth to support the use of "pegged beads" (high catch rates, low mortality, etc.) apply equally well to hooking a fish in the tail or the dorsal area. Yet, those methods constitute "snagging" and an "Illegal method of take" in California.

Now, it also seems to me that if a low mortality rate is a good thing, one could make the argument that all fish should be taken through some form of hooking outside of the mouth (e.g. snagging). Probably not worth worrying about unless one is confronted with the question by a Game Warden :P :P

[Crusty]

Darian,

Have you ever gone over to the dark side and fished a bead? If so, how many fish were foul-hooked (snagged)? If you've never fished a bead, how can you make assumptions about how the the fish are hooked. I've foul-hooked (snagged) more fish (%-wise) the few times I've used a two fly rig (another dark side technique?) than with beads.

I repeat, the overwhelming number (>95%) of fish I catch with a bead are hooked in the corner of the mouth with a #12 or #10 hook, are your results different? I've never hooked (snagged) a fish in the dorsal or tail area with a bead, but 25 years ago I did with a Mepp's Spinner (the ultimate dark side technique).

As far as your unanswered question, any fish hooked outside the mouth is foul-hooked (snagged). Of course all my fish are released, but if I wanted to kill and eat my fish a glo-bug (approved technique?) would be a good option since, for me, it has a much higher mortality rate.

Crusty

[Darian]

Crusty,.... Getting a little testy are we Actually, I think we need to acknowledge that beads or flies or lures all present the same problem in use as a snagging tool and each of us has had similar experiences. With few exceptions, fishing regs in Alaska are not the same as in Calfornia. So, experiences in Alaska don't necessarily apply. Let's get one thing straight, I'm not condemning the pegged beads or any other method. I'm asking questions to try to understand how we, including myself, can justify using what appears to be an illegal method because it's productive. All of the arguments presented in support, thus far, apply equally to the guy who goes down to the AR (or elsewhere) with a large treble hook wrapped with lead.

Back to the discussion..... For "Beads", the issue seems to be settling down to where, on the leader, the beads are pegged. You don't say where your's are placed so one must make an assumption, from your results, that the beads are placed closely to the hook. I think it's safe to say that the farther away from the hook the beads are pegged, the more likely that the hook will set up outside the mouth. So, maybe if the beads are pegged close (within an inch) to the hook, everything is OK

If I understand the regs in California, correctly, anything that would result in consistently snagged fish is seen as a "Illegal method of Take" or snagging (subject to interpretation). That includes use of flies with wide gape hooks in certain waters. I'd sure like to hear from DFG on this..... Wonder if there're any warden's following this

Regardless of our collective experience/results, any method that doesn't comply with the law in California (sinced that is where we're fishing) should not be used.

[Crusty]

Darian,

Testy? No. Confused? Yes.

You say beading = snagging with no personal experience to back it up, only "unnamed persons". We agree to disagree on this point. I've never beaded in Ca, but I imagine my hook to snag ratio would be similar to my experiences in Ak. I do peg the bead within 1" to the hook like you assumed.

Having never beaded here, I didn't bother to check the Ca regs, but you perked my interest with your questioning of the legalities of beading. A quick on-line look at the DFG booklet yielded the following.

Definition of Angling: to take fish by hook and line with the line attached to a pole or rod held in the hand or closely attended in such a manner that fish voluntarily the bait or lure in it's mouth. (page 5)

Fishing Methods General: All fish may be taken only by angling....(page 10)

There is a lengthy description of hook sizes and the distance allowed between a weight and the hook...obviously outlawing snagging...but I couldn't find any reg about distance between a lure or bait and the hook..if I missed it, please point it out to me. I also didn't see a section on "illegal method of take". I'm not familar with "large treble hooks and lead", but do these snaggers (poachers) have a lure or bait and follow the regs on weight and hook placement? If not, please don't compare them to beading since the fish voluntarily take the bead into their mouth.

I'm sure the DFG will address the issue of beading like AK as beading here becomes more popular, but I found nothing in the current regs regulating it. I, like most fly-fisherman, follow all regs (too afraid of bad karma). Please point out any regulations you can find on the subject.

$0.04

Crusty

[Digger]

I think that experiences from anywhere (incl Ak) may in fact apply here. It doesn’t matter what part of the country it may originate from as long as it’s not illegal or unethical.
I think whether or not it’s for the true ‘purist’ or traditional fly fisher is secondary to what the impact is on the resource itself. If the results of a certain method of take are overwhelmingly positive and undisputed, and do not fall outside current regulations, they ought to be adopted, or at least promoted by those of use who care enough to fish with conscientious intent.

We all know how just responsive a bureaucratic agency (DFG) is in keeping up with the latest thing. I would not hesitate to incorporate another method/technique that may not be the norm or traditional if it were less harmful to the fish.

I’m certainly going to opt for the less invasive surgery available, and not opt for any traditional open surgery if I have that option. (perhaps that’s not the best analogy)

[Darian]

Hi Crusty,.... First, I've avoided saying that I've used beads as it doesn't contribute anything to the context of this discussion and doesn't address the question of legality of the method. Obviously, you feel I have to have experienced fishing with beads in order to make a decision about the legality of the method. I disagree with that premise.

As to your claim of 95% rate of hookups in the mouth, I'm giving you credit for keeping logs of actual counts for this activity in order to cite that percentage.....

As to your "Illegal Method of Take" reference, I refer you to the California Code of Regulations (CCR), Title 14., related to Natural Resources and the California Fish & Game Code, too lengthy to cite here. You can access these codes the same way I did thru the DFG website or through The state site at www.leginfo.ca.gov. Now, having pointed the way, some of this requires more interpretation and is not expressly stated in the regs but is in the code. I've done some interpretation (based on my own research) and that is the basis for my question..... By the way, "Illegal Method of Take" is, also, a category of citations issued for fishing violations reflected in the annual Enforcement Branch Citation Summary of DFG. This summary contains a listing of the number of citations issued as a percentage of the total number. You can obtain additonal information on this subject by contacting DFG direct.

All of this aside, It seems to me that as you pointed out, reasonable people can agree to disagree. So, I have asked, for the purposes of this discussion, is anything that results in the hooking of fish outside of the mouth of a fish snagging and, therefore, illegal in California. Until I hear an answer from an expert in this area, I will assert that position.

So, I think we've about done this subject in, at this point..... In spite of the difference of opinion, I've enjoyed it and hope to engage you and all of rest on something equally interesting in the future. I wish you many more and continued success on your trips to Alaska

[Darian]

Digger,..... Sorry, you must've posted while I was doing the same.....

I find little to disagree with in your note. However, I do not concur that experience in AK is the same as in CA (legally). I'd be willing to wager that Regs in AK are not the same as they are here.....

Not wishing to pursue this much further, I'd like to close by saying that we as fisherman need to start paying more than lip-service to the regs and the F&G game code which is the basis for the reg's. When a method is ID'ed that will benefit fish/us, we need to be able to advocate it; not only to the DFG but to legislators and other influential persons. But it needs to be based on more than anecdotal evidence.....

ENOUGH of this, I'M OUTA HERE

[David Lee]

Very impressive .... No name calling , raving , drooling , or cursing . That's what makes this board - we don't have to agree , we just have to be civil . Thanks to you all for the THOUGHTFUL responces . Good job ! David Lee

[Hairstacker]

I've really appreciated this discussion. I've never used a bead as discussed, so it's been very informative for me to hear both sides and get a sense of the pulse on this subject. Having said that, it also occurred to me that globugs may strike some as inappropriate, as some have noted that fish sometimes take these too deep? I've never used globugs either but did buy some yarn and hooks to tie some up. Now I'm starting to wonder whether I should forego them? Anyone have strong feelings on this subject? Are they more often taken deeper than, say, various nymph and leech patterns?