Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 33

Thread: Blue Backs On The American?

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Troutsource View Post
    OK, so in layman's terms: the 18"-20" hatchery fish I caught probably originated from somewhere other than the American -- because (a) summer conditions on the A are very tough for trout survival, and (b) scales for larger spring mykiss on the A indicate that they never went to the ocean -- but rather grew larger upstream on the Sac (and then somehow ended up on the A, perhaps after falling downstream to the Delta, the migrating back up into the A).

    Did I get it right?
    Sort of, 1) An adipose fin marked trout caught in the American River came from one of the anadromous fish hatcheries, i.e. Nimbus, Feather River or Coleman, however, most likely from Nimbus regardless of size. Hatcheries today release juvenile fish near the facility resulting in much less straying, 2) Unmarked fish, either steelhead or trout caught from the American River most likely did not originate in the American due to the river producing very few wild smolts, 3) The scales from fish I have caught in the spring from the American River, similar to pictures posted on this forum do not demonstrate both freshwater and ocean growth periods, typical of steelhead, indicating they did not migrate to the ocean, where they go is a guess, 4) This does not mean that some unmarked fish caught from the American River could not have migrated to the ocean and returned as steelhead. Physical appearance of the fish is not an indicator of life history.

    Dennis

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Sutter Co and the KMP
    Posts
    274

    Default

    Thanks Dennis.

    That's extremely interesting and completely confounding.

    I see several significant take-aways from Dennis' comments:

    1- He's not saying that there aren't hatchery steelhead (Mykiss that have a saltwater component in their respective LHs) on the American in the single salt range and his comments apply to the fish on the A that appear to be stream born; no clipped or partially clipped ad fins, or other visual indicators like crooked rays in the dorsal fin that would be obvious indicators for hatchery Mykiss produced at Nimbus (or other hatcheries) that may have been released unclipped.

    2- The stream born fish Mark describes in great detail in the approximate one salt size range, 18-22"ish fish, on the A no matter how much they look like steelhead and act like steelhead, the vast majority if not the entirety of the population are not steelhead and are not hitting the salt.

    3- They're also not just larger, older resident fish that emerged from the gravel somewhere on the A, and survived to their 3rd+ year of life on the A.

    4- The A produces some stream born Mykiss but they do not survive beyond their first year of life in significant numbers. If the A can't produce a significant amount of stream born age 1+ O. Mykiss by default it's not producing fishable numbers of stream born steelhead or larger sized resident fish. I don't fish the A, so that's pretty depressing to hear.

    5- These fish have to have origins from elsewhere, both in terms of where they emerged from the gravel and developed and all their growth occurred in freshwater, not a marine/ saltwater environs.

    I see this as very significant because although these fish may only show in intermittent years on the A, we get these fish in significant, fishable numbers on the Feather every season. About 40-50% of the fish I landed in March on the Feather were stream born about half were also larger than you'd expect 'single salt' F steelhead to be. That's pretty typical for March on the F for me. I don't have any 1st hand experience but I do know these fish show up regularly on other Sac river tribs as well.

    Without going into detail I do know that not some, but all the wild fish I caught on the Feather during one season had completely freshwater LHs, even the larger fish to about 6 lbs. I think that the population of migratory but not anadromous fish that Dennis is describing could potentially be a significantly larger population than it might seem at first glance. IF that is indeed the case I think it would not only be really interesting to determine where these fish are originating and what survival strategies they're employing (are they really emigrating to and developing in the Delta or are they just chasing the schools of emigrating chinook down the mainstem Sac and up the tribs or any combination of a myriad of other possibilities, but you'd need to understand the nature of these to effectively manage in their favor.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    57

    Default

    ycflyfisher;

    Great discussion and sorry to be confounding, as my wife says "make sure they want the 98 cent story and not just a nickel answer." Sometimes it is hard to put all into a short post which is why I usually refrain from Forum discussions. Nonetheless, regarding the origin of unmarked (non-hatchery produced) O. mykiss (using the technical verbiage) in local rivers, remember, the Sacramento River once supported an excellent steelhead run. Today, due to environmental changes, the river below Keswick now supports a large tailwater population of naturally produced rainbow trout. Studies have shown some rainbow trout retain the genes or whatever abilities to smolt and migrate to a saltwater environment.

    Shapovalov and Taft in their Waddel Creek Fish Bulletin No. 98 (1954) wrote about "stream trout" and how some spawned, later migrated to the ocean and then returned as steelhead. With the migratory tendencies of rainbow trout, I cannot imagine every fish produced in the Sacramento River stays in the Sacramento River. I suspect many migrate downstream as "migratory resident" fish while some even smolt and enter saltwater. Many of these unmarked "migrants" eventually end up in our various rivers.

    Dennis

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Sebastian, FL, USA, Earth
    Posts
    23,837

    Default

    Dennis' second? book is coming out next summer/fall?


    It will be "California Winter Steelhead".


    https://dennisplee.com/wintersteelheadbook/
    Bill Kiene (Boca Grande)

    567 Barber Street
    Sebastian, Florida 32958

    Fly Fishing Travel Consultant
    Certified FFF Casting Instructor

    Email: billkiene63@gmail.com
    Cell: 530/753-5267
    Web: www.billkiene.com

    Contact me for any reason........
    ______________________________________

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    East Bay
    Posts
    681

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Troutsource View Post
    OK, so in layman's terms: the 18"-20" hatchery fish I caught probably originated from somewhere other than the American -- because (a) summer conditions on the A are very tough for trout survival, and (b) scales for larger spring mykiss on the A indicate that they never went to the ocean -- but rather grew larger upstream on the Sac (and then somehow ended up on the A, perhaps after falling downstream to the Delta, the migrating back up into the A).

    Did I get it right?
    I believe the same goes with Yuba fish. If I remember correctly they tagged some fish and those fish moved around a lot. Some went to the Bay and back. Some went to the Sac and came back. I’ve caught 16” fish on the AR during late summer and wasn’t hatchery. I’ve also seen steelhead spawning much lower in the system on the AR in January/February that weren’t Eel strain size. Even talked to a conventional guide who says those fish are there every year. I’m sure it’s very complex. More than we know.
    Last edited by Rossflyguy; 04-05-2020 at 06:37 PM.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Sebastian, FL, USA, Earth
    Posts
    23,837

    Default

    Trout and Steelhead can swim in and out of dozens of river in this huge drainage.

    If we could have control of the water levels in our reservoirs we could have a lot colder water.
    Bill Kiene (Boca Grande)

    567 Barber Street
    Sebastian, Florida 32958

    Fly Fishing Travel Consultant
    Certified FFF Casting Instructor

    Email: billkiene63@gmail.com
    Cell: 530/753-5267
    Web: www.billkiene.com

    Contact me for any reason........
    ______________________________________

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Granite Bay, CA
    Posts
    505

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kiene semi-retired View Post
    Trout and Steelhead can swing in and out of dozens of river in this huge drainage.
    I think that's why the regulate the Yuba rainbows as steelhead.

    Regarding water temps, I'm a little puzzled by the A. There are plenty of caddis and midges to be eaten, and if you look at the attached graph, only once in the last 10 years has it gone over 70 degrees. The last three summers it barely hit 65. So are there more trout than we think there in the summer? I know I experimented fishing in August last year and had some great days. If I'm revealing a dirty little secret about the A, I apologize, but I think there's plenty of room for us all and I'm generally in favor of more transparency instead of less. Give some info, get some info, and be responsible when you fish.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	AR Temps.JPG 
Views:	220 
Size:	50.4 KB 
ID:	15568

    PS Bummer, Sac County parks closed this weekend: https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/ar...41837191.html?

    But I sense some wiggle room:

    "All 29 county parks will be cordoned off starting Friday night and reopen Monday morning, Casparis said. That includes popular parks along the American River, as well as facilities like Sherman Island and Gibson Ranch.

    But multi-use trails and bike paths — such as the Two Rivers Trail and the American River Parkway — will remain open for bicyclists and pedestrians," Casparis said.
    Last edited by Troutsource; 04-07-2020 at 08:48 PM.
    TroutSource.com
    we deliver the river

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Sutter Co and the KMP
    Posts
    274

    Default

    Thanks Dennis. No need to apologize for confounding me. Being confounded is often times the default state of mind for me when trying to understand complex ecological or fisheries concepts or even simple issues that I often times attempt to put in a 'box' of concepts that I feel I do understand. You've got some interesting articles on your blog also.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Sutter Co and the KMP
    Posts
    274

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Troutsource View Post
    I think that's why the regulate the Yuba rainbows as steelhead.

    Regarding water temps, I'm a little puzzled by the A. There are plenty of caddis and midges to be eaten, and if you look at the attached graph, only once in the last 10 years has it gone over 70 degrees. The last three summers it barely hit 65. So are there more trout than we think there in the summer? I know I experimented fishing in August last year and had some great days. If I'm revealing a dirty little secret about the A, I apologize, but I think there's plenty of room for us all and I'm generally in favor of more transparency instead of less. Give some info, get some info, and be responsible when you fish.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	AR Temps.JPG 
Views:	220 
Size:	50.4 KB 
ID:	15568
    .
    I really don't know the answers to your questions and I'm not sure where that temp gauge is on the A. I'm guessing it's fairly high up. Temperature is definitely an important aspect of habitat but it's definitely not the only one that limits Mykiss abundance. Elevated temps from the prolonged drought of the last decade definitely had a negative impact on Mykiss abundance in CV watersheds where abundance was monitored. In some of the south delta tribs, it really hammered abundance. The A my have temps suitable to support Mykiss, but there's a fairly fine line which can result in a huge difference between supporting some life and supporting high abundance.

    There was a time when I went seine net crazy, and I used to set seines for long periods everywhere I fish to capture any incidental and behavioral drift that may be happening, and by my account both the diversity and total biomass captured per unit time on the lower Feather (which like the A is seriously invert impaired) vs someplace like the Yuba was shocking.

    The things Ross mentions I THINK is from some discussion of unpublish data (I don't think RB has published this yet) from a telemetry study on the Yuba. The fish from this study were generally larger, they had to be large enough to implant, and I seem to recall all the recorded predation events on implanted fish occurred below Daguerre. Similarly, seasonal predator movement on the upper reaches of the lower Sac up until recently by were restricted by the Red Bluff Diversion Dam (The RBDD was abandoned in place with the gates up around 2013ish). Mykiss on the A would have to develop in a much more predator rich environs. How much of a contributing factor is limited predator movement to development of abundant riverine pops of Mykiss on the Yuba and LS? I don't know, but I think it helps.

    But to Dennis' main point, to see even a modest run of late steelhead~100 or so fish that have origins on the A ( or similarly modest older rirverine fish- a few hundred or so), you'd have to have something on the order of at least 10K to 20k age 1 to age 2 (~5" to 9" fish) somewhere in the A every day of the season. With those kinds of densities on a short stub of a river, anglers should be catching a bunch of smaller Mykiss.

    Are there more larger Mykiss on the A year round than most would think? Maybe. Possibly, I don't really know, but I'd question if they were all products of the A.

    Just some things to think about.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Sebastian, FL, USA, Earth
    Posts
    23,837

    Default

    They installed "Shutters" on Folsom Dam to take water at different levels to control the temperature of the Lower American river:

    Folsom Dam was designed to be able to release water from various elevations within the
    reservoir simultaneously. Dam operators modify temperature control device (TCD) shutters on
    each of the three powerhouse generation penstocks to take water from different depths in the
    reservoir and blend outflows in order to meet downstream regulatory temperature
    requirements/targets. Operators also adjust the elevation of the Municipal Water Supply Intake
    (Municipal Intake) (Vermeyen, T.B. 1997) and operate the low level outlets on the dam to modify
    outflow water temperatures and preserve cold water resources in the reservoir. The water
    temperature model was developed to automatically determine the best ATSP outflow
    temperature schedule possible and utilize cold water in the reservoir most effectively. The model
    includes automated TCD and powerhouse flow split operations, a user specified target
    temperature for the variable elevation Municipal Intake, and use of the low level outlets in late
    fall to access cold water in the reservoir below the powerhouse outlets.
    Bill Kiene (Boca Grande)

    567 Barber Street
    Sebastian, Florida 32958

    Fly Fishing Travel Consultant
    Certified FFF Casting Instructor

    Email: billkiene63@gmail.com
    Cell: 530/753-5267
    Web: www.billkiene.com

    Contact me for any reason........
    ______________________________________

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •