Casting question

[JasonB]

I’ve been doing some work on my casts lately and having some noticeable improvements and I’m developing a better awareness for what’s going well and where I’m making mistakes. I do have one issue that shows up at times though, and I’m not totally sure what may be causing it, or how to address it. I’m guessing this is something obvious, but at times I’ll have a cast go out that looks and feels great at first: nice tight pointy loop, with good line speed (good, but not great), only to watch the cast not turn over at the end.

When this happens it’s when I’m trying for substantial distance, but I am also getting lots of casts to turn over completely at those distances (or occasionally more distance) with the same set up. I haven’t been able to conclusively pin down what’s so different. My best guess is that some of them seem to have higher line speed, but I’ve not been able to say what I did differently?

I’m using a Tarpon taper line, with a short stout leader, and a 2/0 baitfish pattern. My best guess is that the cast is just running out of gas to turn over the fly, but I’m not totally sure where to start. Of course I’ve tried to just clobber it as hard as I can (no, not deliberately), with predictably disastrous results! I’m also wondering if carrying too much line into the back cast could be a contributing factor? I’d welcome any ideas...
Thanks!
JB

[Ralph]

A couple of things people do when powering the last cast is to push too hard at the start, which will deflect the rod more than the previous casts (pulling harder on the haul will do the same thing) and wreck your rhythm and loop; the other is to extend the arm too early on the out bound delivery which opens up the loop. Try doing a bunch of long water hauls, this will often clean up your long casts and allow you to see where your flaws are being introduced.

Watch the loop unfurl behind you to be certain your timing is perfect. Lots of people are so intent on getting out the long shot they concentrate on only what's in front of them and forget about the other half of the cast. At least this is a start

[JasonB]

Thanks Ralph. Those are all indeed faults that I do have at times, especially when I end up trying to force things. This particular issue is actually unique, in that it’s happening when I haven’t muscled things and I’m watching what looks like a very pointy loop sail away only to die out without turning over completely. Sometimes wind is a bit of a factor, but it’s clearly not just the wind, since plenty of my casts are turning all the way over in these same practice sessions.

I’m curious about what you mean about long water hauls. Are you meaning to practice just using a water haul to make singular forward or singular back casts, with longer amounts of line? That sounds like a pretty good idea, since that certainly helped me in the very early stages of casting short to medium distances.

[Ralph]

I'm guessing if you set up a camera and video yourself, you would see 3 great pointy loop casts but on the release cast that loop has opened up a bit. You could also be slightly changing your trajectory and shooting the final cast slightly upward and fighting gravity.

The water haul forces you to smooth everything out (the surface tension does it for you). It sets you up for a perfect back cast and as we all know it takes a perfect backcast to make a perfect forecast. The only way to screw up the backcast with a water haul is by waiting too long and the tail starts to drop below plane -or- to start forward too soon which will tend to whip the loop around and cause a tailing loop at best or a wind knot at worst. TURN YOUR HEAD AND WATCH -but don't turn your shoulders. The split second before the loop unravels all the way or the line starts to sag towards the ground, smooooothly apply forward pressure to pull all the winkles out of the system, accelerate to the forward stop point, and stop as if the rod is hitting a wall (or a spoon of mashed potatoes is hitting the top of the pot).

Like using a water haul, casting directly into a stiff breeze can unravel casting problems. Facing into the wind, flip your line straight UP and hold the rod perfectly vertical and still. Allow the wind to sail the line behind you. When the line straightens out, drive the cast down and stop hard only a few inches above the water. You should be sending out a streaking vee across the white caps that jerk line from the reel at the end of the cast. Many people can cast further into a stiff wind using this technique than they can on a calm day. I use it all the time to make the wind work for me, rather than fight it.

[BS]

I’ve been doing some work on my casts lately and having some noticeable improvements and I’m developing a better awareness for what’s going well and where I’m making mistakes. I do have one issue that shows up at times though, and I’m not totally sure what may be causing it, or how to address it. I’m guessing this is something obvious, but at times I’ll have a cast go out that looks and feels great at first: nice tight pointy loop, with good line speed (good, but not great), only to watch the cast not turn over at the end.

When this happens it’s when I’m trying for substantial distance, but I am also getting lots of casts to turn over completely at those distances (or occasionally more distance) with the same set up. I haven’t been able to conclusively pin down what’s so different. My best guess is that some of them seem to have higher line speed, but I’ve not been able to say what I did differently?

I’m using a Tarpon taper line, with a short stout leader, and a 2/0 baitfish pattern. My best guess is that the cast is just running out of gas to turn over the fly, but I’m not totally sure where to start. Of course I’ve tried to just clobber it as hard as I can (no, not deliberately), with predictably disastrous results! I’m also wondering if carrying too much line into the back cast could be a contributing factor? I’d welcome any ideas...
Thanks!
JB

Jason,

While I'm FAR from being a Pro at casting, I did look up some Tarpon Taper line profiles and noticed that, for the most part, the total head length is around 40-41 feet in length...... including the rear taper.

That said, are you trying to cast with the ~ 41 foot head outside the rods tip top.......which could result in an "over loaded" rod, or airealizing too much line, which in turn could/would cause "dumping" i.e. just running out of gas, or are you casting with just the ~30 foot head length (minus the rear taper) which could be an "underlined rod" scenario.

What weight rod and what weight fly line are you using ??

Adding some of those "details" could help to figure this out.


Bob

[JasonB]

Hey thanks again. There’s some good stuff there, and you are describing a lot of what I’m working on right now. Timing, smoothing out the start of my casts, tightening up my back cast, controlling the release trajectory, etc.

Just to be clear though, when I say I’m watching pointy loops that just die out, I do mean that the loop stays tight after I’ve released it and it’s staying very tight all the way out. The thing that’s odd, and kind of frustrating, is that most of these casts usually look like some of my best loops of all... but somewhere between 60-80 feet or so I can start to see that it’s not looking likely to turn all the way over. Sometimes I can see hints earlier in flight, sometimes it looks great all the way out to 85-90’ but dies out with the loop still tightly formed and not quite turning over. Often, I will at first think I’ve just nailed it as I watch it go. In other words, it’s definitely not occurring due to overloading the rod or opening up the loop (though I do that far more often than I would like too).
Thanks again,
JB

[JasonB]

Jason,

While I'm FAR from being a Pro at casting, I did look up some Tarpon Taper line profiles and noticed that, for the most part, the total head length is around 40-41 feet in length...... including the rear taper.

That said, are you trying to cast with the ~ 41 foot head outside the rods tip top.......which could result in an "over loaded" rod, or airealizing too much line, which in turn could/would cause "dumping" i.e. just running out of gas, or are you casting with just the ~30 foot head length (minus the rear taper) which could be an "underlined rod" scenario.

What weight rod and what weight fly line are you using ??

Adding some of those "details" could help to figure this out.


Bob

Thanks Bob, the rod certainly isn’t being overloaded here, but you did hit right on what I’ve been wondering about. The head is 41’ irrc (SA mastery Tarpon 12wt, Echo3s 12wt rod), but for these longest casts I’ve been trying to pick up varying lengths of line. I definitely notice that I have many more casting faults start showing up if I try to pick up too much more line, usually 4-5’ feet more than the head seems to work pretty well...sometimes more is still good, sometimes less.
Thanks! JB

[BS]

Thanks Bob, the rod certainly isn’t being overloaded here, but you did hit right on what I’ve been wondering about. The head is 41’ irrc (SA mastery Tarpon 12wt, Echo3s 12wt rod), but for these longest casts I’ve been trying to pick up varying lengths of line. I definitely notice that I have many more casting faults start showing up if I try to pick up too much more line, usually 4-5’ feet more than the head seems to work pretty well...sometimes more is still good, sometimes less.
Thanks! JB

Gotcha' Jason.

Have you tried any other 12wt lines with different head profiles/tapers ???
And if so, did this casting "bug a boo" you're trying to eliminate get any better or worse ???

It might be worth it to try a different 12wt line with a different head profile/length just to see if things improve or get worse.......

I'm thinking it's maybe just a case of re-adjusting your casting stroke/power applied to that ~41' head of your Tarpon line.

In your first post you said "When this happens it’s when I’m trying for substantial distance".
Are you using a single haul, or a double haul, or neither ??

Still scratching my head.............................


Bob

[JasonB]

I have tried other rod line combinations, and it has happened before but not generally with such well formed loops. I’m curious to try another line/leader/fly on this rod to see if it changes things much. I’m double hauling on these and other casts.

[BS]

I have tried other rod line combinations, and it has happened before but not generally with such well formed loops. I’m curious to try another line/leader/fly on this rod to see if it changes things much. I’m double hauling on these and other casts.

I think the above in bold is the key here.
A ~ 41 foot head is a whole lot of fly line to airealize and get to roll out consistently like you're trying to do.

I'm curious to see if a different line/leader/fly combo changes your results as well.

I'm thinking a ~ 30' ish head will yield much better results for you.

Just my thoughts,


Bob