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Thread: Salmon and steelhead spawning gravel at Sailor Bar. Here they go again...

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Clemens View Post


    YC,
    Here are my opinions on the "data" that was posted in the previous post. They have been spending millions upon millions of dollars since summer 2004, let's call it 15yrs at an estimated 8-15 million per project, that's 120 to 225 Million, let's just take the bottom end of that and say 120 Million dollars spent on these projects that havent had any significant increase in anything(I'll explain) , except juvenile "estimates", which is great if we are seeing those numbers of juvenile fish. Steelhead are 2 year return fish, salmon 2 to 5yr return fish. What those charts tell me if you truly study them is their work is 50/50 at best, flip a coin. Nothing has truly changed for the better. We are not seeing more fish returns even if it's just a small noticable increase, but there are no increases. What we are seeing is the destruction and shallowing of a river what once was a beautiful designated wild and scenic river. Really study those charts carefully. The spring run salmon has not increased if anything it has decreased since previous years, you can also see that its cyclic, like all anadramous fish. Those numbers are up and down, but way more spring run before trrp than now, the true wild salmon of the trinity. I'd have to say the same thing for fall salmon as well. Not a big change at all. As for steelhead, you cant count the mid 2000s when we had those huge unnatural numbers. The hatchery produce more steelhead than they were supposed to and released them. But you can see what happened, they returned in great numbers and we were all happy. Those numbers had nothing to do with trrp. So then you wonder, if more fish are being created by these projects we should be seeing more in return. So back to steelhead, if you take those big fish years out of the equation then again nothing has changed. If you truly have 5.4 million juvenile fish exiting this river system healthy and ready to go, it doesnt matter what river it is you are going to see a huge return of fish compared to pre-trrp numbers. Just like the mid 2000s with the return of the hatchery created steelhead. Lots of money being spent on returns that are lack luster.
    Brian,

    Thanks for the response but you didn't answer the question, so I'll ask it again:

    Let's assume you're correct, and to some degree the river is as FUBAR'd as you seem to believe that it is. How do you reconcile the fish response; specifically the stream-born Chinook response Fishtopher asked you about in post #30? How specifically would you presume to get such a huge jump in production if the project is making conditions less favorable to the fish? This would pertain to the graphic on the left which as Fishtopher pointed out is not linked to the uncertainty of marine survival but draws a direct correlation to the productivity of inland habitat.

  2. #82
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    Jun 2012
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    I think steelhead season is close..... loving it!
    Aron-



    "I own a time machine, but it only moves forward at regular speed..."

    "So many rivers to fish so little time!"

  3. #83
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    Apr 2019
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    On the River in Shastanistan
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    Very relevant post YC, thanks for your continued participation in this topic since Fishtopher has checked out of here. A few personal observations from someone who has fished the Trinity since the 1970's. The local Trinity County economy has boomed since the 2000's. There are new stores, restaurants, and lodging to support the growing economy, driven in large part to support anglers. None more telling is the huge increase in guides because prior to 2000, they were few and far between. There is a good reason for that, it's because there's been a crapton more steelhead in the Trinity since 2000. And those guides wouldn't have clients if TRRP had FUBAR'ed the river as has been stated. Quite frankly, Brian wouldn't have a job as a guide if the steelhead runs pre-2000 were still happening. In fact, I'm now going to criticize the TRRP. TRRP has indeed FUBAR'ed the river by helping to restore the steelhead run, especially the wild component. My personal catch of wild to hatchery fish has skyrocketed since 2000. My catch per day has also skyrocketed. I rarely get skunked nowadays. I regularly got skunked pre-2000. Why am I mad at TRRP? Because there are now a crapton more guides and anglers fishing the river. I don't fish the Trinity near as much as I used to because it's way too crowded for my tastes. But, I would rather have a healthy river with more fish to fish for (thanks TRRP), than my own selfish need for solitude. And YC, you really nailed it in your last sentence, because I caught my very first steelhead on the Trinity and now fish for them all over the PNW.

    Quote Originally Posted by ycflyfisher View Post
    Darian,

    Any notion that this project has been anything but a huge benefit to the local economy (both short and long term), is nothing short of bizarre. First there's the benefit of construction, which puts some locals to work, but mainly brings in out of area contractors and subs, who boost the economy while they're working. Materials and ancillaries purchased locally, etc.

    Then there's direct response to the project: Less than 30 or so permitted, predominantly local guides to BLM limiting permits to 100 post project with guides not only coming from all over CA but out of state. Angler foot traffic going from chirping crickets pre-project, to fall Gore-Tex hatch levels post project. I'd say there's been a carry over to other watersheds, because there's significantly more anglers fishing steelhead everywhere, most of whom started on the Trinity.
    Last edited by WLREDBAND; 08-29-2019 at 08:18 AM.

  4. #84
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    Jan 2005
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    Sacramento
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    7,786

    Default TRRP....

    Thanks for the perspective ycflyfisher. I haven't been up there in some time, so....

    How do you/fishtopher see the potential flooding of unpermitted building/homes constructed in the flood plain?? Did the owner/occupants leave or are they still there (or is this really an issue)??
    Last edited by Darian; 08-29-2019 at 09:40 AM.
    "America is a country which produces citizens who will cross the ocean to fight for democracy but won't cross the street to vote."

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  5. #85
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    Apr 2006
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    Placer County
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    Quote Originally Posted by winxp_man View Post



    I think steelhead season is close..... loving it!
    It's like the rut......

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
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    Santa Rosa
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    Can we get back to pegged beads?

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Sutter Co and the KMP
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darian View Post
    Thanks for the perspective ycflyfisher. I haven't been up there in some time, so....

    How do you/fishtopher see the potential flooding of unpermitted building/homes constructed in the flood plain?? Did the owner/occupants leave or are they still there (or is this really an issue)??
    Darian,

    I used to subscribe to the Trinity Journal and the Kourier. The Kourier went away after the owner and publisher retired after his wife died of cancer in the early 2000's and I stopped the subscription to the Journal around 2014. I don't ever recall reading about or hearing about any houses flooding due to project flows. I'm skeptical that this is a legit concern. There are definitely some homeowners that have done work to curtail erosion (some probably legal) and some likely done with no permitting @ Lyme Point.

    I know that you know this but there's also nothing fishy about compensating land owners for use of their land for storage of materials, encroachment or simply inconvenience on construction projects. I've never worked on an eco-rehab project before but I've been on one where we compensated a homeowner for having to tear down a fence to excavate some underground infrastructure. We replaced all of his fencing, resodded his yard and paid for the inconvenience. Once we had to drill a 12' rescue shaft to retrieve a TBM in a land owners front yard. That resulted in a large compensation package.
    Last edited by ycflyfisher; 08-30-2019 at 01:12 AM.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by WLREDBAND View Post
    Very relevant post YC, thanks for your continued participation in this topic since Fishtopher has checked out of here. A few personal observations from someone who has fished the Trinity since the 1970's. The local Trinity County economy has boomed since the 2000's. There are new stores, restaurants, and lodging to support the growing economy, driven in large part to support anglers. None more telling is the huge increase in guides because prior to 2000, they were few and far between. There is a good reason for that, it's because there's been a crapton more steelhead in the Trinity since 2000. And those guides wouldn't have clients if TRRP had FUBAR'ed the river as has been stated. Quite frankly, Brian wouldn't have a job as a guide if the steelhead runs pre-2000 were still happening. In fact, I'm now going to criticize the TRRP. TRRP has indeed FUBAR'ed the river by helping to restore the steelhead run, especially the wild component. My personal catch of wild to hatchery fish has skyrocketed since 2000. My catch per day has also skyrocketed. I rarely get skunked nowadays. I regularly got skunked pre-2000. Why am I mad at TRRP? Because there are now a crapton more guides and anglers fishing the river. I don't fish the Trinity near as much as I used to because it's way too crowded for my tastes. But, I would rather have a healthy river with more fish to fish for (thanks TRRP), than my own selfish need for solitude. And YC, you really nailed it in your last sentence, because I caught my very first steelhead on the Trinity and now fish for them all over the PNW.
    Thanks. I rarely if ever fish the combat section of the river during the fall anymore. Just a few days a year in the fall with friends that just don't possess the necessary skill set to have much success on the Mid Klamath or the lower river. I do still fish it in what most would consider the off-season.

    No one likes crowds and like most that fished the river pre-project, I found it flat out maddening. I think it's a good thing because with the near death of the logging industry, the growth in the service industry on the Trinity is the only thing keeping smaller river hamlets from straight up evaporating like we've seen happen on the Mid-Klamath.

    I think Brian would still be guiding without this project, just not on the Trinity. Brian sent me 2 PMs and will not be answering the question posed to him 3 different times on this thread. There are times where silence speaks louder than words.

    I don't have Fishtopher's background, experience or expertise, but I'll be happy to try to answer any questions anyone has about this project. If I don't know the answer, I'll run it past one of the fisheries and ecology professionals I know and share that information here.

  9. #89
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    Jun 2014
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    Antelope
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    Here is an interesting read.
    It will ask you to download the pdf file, its only 423kb, but I've also added screen shots of it as well.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...WI463b2a71Evle

    Fish are out there just gotta find um, quite sitting behind the computer reading this crap and get out and get bent. Lost two hot fish yesterday swinging, 1 today. Looking forward to a few more swing sessions up here and it's back down to the valley to move into the new home.

    Tight lines
    and
    Solid grabs
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    Last edited by Brian Clemens; 08-30-2019 at 06:56 PM.
    And Always Remember
    Keep Those Line Tights
    Brian W Clemens
    Nor Cal Fly Guides
    530-354-3740
    norcalflyguides@gmail.com
    www.norcalflyguides.com


    "I have many loves and Fly-Fishing is one of them; it brings peace and harmony to my being, which I can then pass on to others."
    ~ Sue Kreutzer

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