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Thread: Salmon and steelhead spawning gravel at Sailor Bar. Here they go again...

  1. #71
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
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    Antelope
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    So heres some food for thought
    1) "they" are willing to sacrifice "destroy" good healthy natural spawning habitat for rearing habitat, the 2017 and 2019 projects has shown us this. Why destroy it, why not work around it, leaving the good natural spawning habitat and create rearing habitat around that, no need to destroy good natural spawning habitat that is hard to come by these days on tailwater rivers
    2) the hatchery is producing less hatchery fish as a hole
    3) they say the projects are creating more fish as high as 5.4 million in a single year and it's best year, but numbers have significantly decreased after that to traditional numbers pre or post trrp. But with those numbers we dont know what the return success rate is, but we do have charts showing lack luster results in returning adults. So where are those fish.
    4) if the so said "more fish" return in future years and they have less natural spawning habitat than in previous years because they are willing to sacrifice it, then how can these "more fish" spawn properly with less spawning habitat which includes proper gravel as as well as holding/resting water. "More fish" less spawning habitat, fish spawning on top of each other, at that point sounds a lot like the American and Feather Rivers. To many fish not enough spawning habitat. Well if they do successfully spawn their offspring with have all the rearing habitat they need.


    Why arent the the biggest names in restoration part of this project? Ones that are all for restoring not only trout waters but are huge advocates for restoring anadramous waterssheds that once had or still have good numbers of wild fish. AKA Cal Trout or TU.

    They are trying to create something that never was, is or ever will be. Work with what you currently have not what you want or that the pocket book allows you to do. How about a small well designed high end project instead of a large scale projects we are seeing. You don't see any other restoration projects completely ripping up the river and river bank redirecting the river the way they think it should be, and creating something that isn't natural. Other resto projects do small projects at a time, as to not be rushed, finished on time, they use the proper material, big riprap rocks that wont get pushed around by the water and fill the river in when protecting the tips of islands, side channels or changes in river direction. Great example is the project on the Lower Sac above Cypress Bridge river left, you would never know there was a project there. Better yet 90kcfs ran though there and wouldn't you know it, all their work is still there. They all work with the confines of what they currently have on that specific water system. With slightly controllable water regimes outside of big water years.


    Let's get some organizations that are not paid of by the trrp and do inter-river studies, not studies just on the projects but the full healthiness of the river. Proper holding water,spawning habitat, rearing habitat,is the river shallower than it was in previous years and why. Is the river warmer now than in previous years and so on. This should be down annually even bi-annually by an unpaid trrp organization so there are no conflicts of interest. Thats one of our issues, to many hands in this multi-million dollar cookie jar, all working together with no outside organizations helping that aren't paid or persuaded by the trrp.


    Maybe it's time to take a stand, get the media involved and picket the trrp building thats a start, and see what happens then.
    And Always Remember
    Keep Those Line Tights
    Brian W Clemens
    Nor Cal Fly Guides
    530-354-3740
    norcalflyguides@gmail.com
    www.norcalflyguides.com


    "I have many loves and Fly-Fishing is one of them; it brings peace and harmony to my being, which I can then pass on to others."
    ~ Sue Kreutzer

  2. #72
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    Rescue ,CA Cromberg, CA
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    What a waste of money and time! Those restoration projects have done nothing but destroy the river!

  3. #73
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    Oct 2013
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    alameda
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    Fishtopher,

    I want you (and everyone else) to know is that when you stick to the facts and share useful information I am very grateful, where I disagree with anyone is when you attack the person that disagrees with you. If you could refrain from the personal attacks then I would not have any complaints. I believe I was triggered by all the personal comments being directed towards Brian and felt I needed to make a stand so I decided to lash out myself. I probably should have been more thoughtful but, what is done is done.

    Using Brian's first post on this subject as an example he shared his observations on the Trinity River Project which he is obviously very passionate about. He did not attack anyone personally yet you felt the need to disparage him and his character and that is just not the way to interact with people in my opinion.

    Was Brian a bit harsh in his criticisms of the projects? Yes. Was he a bit crude in his presentation? Perhaps. But he did not attack anyone personally.

    When Brian brought up his observations and the experience he had on the river instead of pushing him off the cliff you could have reached out to him. Perhaps instead of responding that "Almost every statement that Brian has made is a mischaracterization of reality." and later saying that Brian was speaking nothing more than rumors and hear-say you could have approached it in a more positive way for example:

    "Brian I understand you are passionate about the Trinity river and I can appreciate your concern. However, the project has not completed it's full cycle and I believe that in the end the outcome will be better than what you are observing at this time. Please give the process some time to see if the modifications that were made or are being made will work in the long term. We had a lot of good people working on these projects and the process is not done yet."

    Then you could have continued sharing information on what you expect the outcome to be as you wrote in a later posting.

    I hope you can understand the difference in how you respond to someone affects the readers perception of the writer. If you truly do have an open mind as you say you do and I really hope that is true then you can understand that responding with compassion to another position even if you feel they are wrong can go a long way towards improving dialogue with each other.

    My hope is that we are really all on the same team and although our opinions may differ we are all mature enough and wise enough to try to work together and be compassionate if not understanding of each others opinions or observations.

    Regards,

    Tim C.

  4. #74
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
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    On the River in Shastanistan
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    WOW, TC ain't that the pot calling the kettle black. Here are excerpts from your previous postings:
    "Fishtopher, I have learned from your postings that you are incapable of engaging in any meaningful discussion. Your mind is closed to any information presented that may be contrary to your theories or beliefs."
    "Brian, keep up the good fight, these others show their lack of sincerity and their lack of commitment, intelligence or knowledge by criticizing others and then hiding behind their screen names."
    "It would be helpful if you could continue to share what you know or have read without trying to discredit anyone with a dissenting opinion. I am not sure you are capable of that but, it would be helpful."

    And you're lecturing people about being a kinder and gentler poster!!!! Seriously?????
    Pot meet kettle.




    Quote Originally Posted by tcorfey View Post
    Fishtopher,

    I want you (and everyone else) to know is that when you stick to the facts and share useful information I am very grateful, where I disagree with anyone is when you attack the person that disagrees with you. If you could refrain from the personal attacks then I would not have any complaints. I believe I was triggered by all the personal comments being directed towards Brian and felt I needed to make a stand so I decided to lash out myself. I probably should have been more thoughtful but, what is done is done.

    Using Brian's first post on this subject as an example he shared his observations on the Trinity River Project which he is obviously very passionate about. He did not attack anyone personally yet you felt the need to disparage him and his character and that is just not the way to interact with people in my opinion.

    Was Brian a bit harsh in his criticisms of the projects? Yes. Was he a bit crude in his presentation? Perhaps. But he did not attack anyone personally.

    When Brian brought up his observations and the experience he had on the river instead of pushing him off the cliff you could have reached out to him. Perhaps instead of responding that "Almost every statement that Brian has made is a mischaracterization of reality." and later saying that Brian was speaking nothing more than rumors and hear-say you could have approached it in a more positive way for example:

    "Brian I understand you are passionate about the Trinity river and I can appreciate your concern. However, the project has not completed it's full cycle and I believe that in the end the outcome will be better than what you are observing at this time. Please give the process some time to see if the modifications that were made or are being made will work in the long term. We had a lot of good people working on these projects and the process is not done yet."

    Then you could have continued sharing information on what you expect the outcome to be as you wrote in a later posting.

    I hope you can understand the difference in how you respond to someone affects the readers perception of the writer. If you truly do have an open mind as you say you do and I really hope that is true then you can understand that responding with compassion to another position even if you feel they are wrong can go a long way towards improving dialogue with each other.

    My hope is that we are really all on the same team and although our opinions may differ we are all mature enough and wise enough to try to work together and be compassionate if not understanding of each others opinions or observations.

    Regards,

    Tim C.

  5. #75
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
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    On the River in Shastanistan
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    162

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    <<<Maybe it's time to take a stand, get the media involved and picket the trrp building thats a start, and see what happens then.>>>
    Go for it Brian. Do it, if you feel that "everyone" is on your side. You can effect change if you work hard enough. The time politically for it may never be better. But a warning. I was involved in the multiple users groups who mobilized to save the Trinity back in the 1980's and 1990's. They felt that the Trinity was being destroyed by the water interests (and correctly), banded together and fought together to implement changes to make the Trinity better. They pressured their elected political leaders for changes, and one of those changes from Congress was the establishment of the TRRP. Go for it.

  6. #76
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
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    alameda
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    WL,

    You are correct I did lash out against what I perceived as an injustice against Brian but, what you seem to have missed is that I did address my transgressions in my opening remarks where I wrote:

    "I believe I was triggered by all the personal comments being directed towards Brian and felt I needed to make a stand so I decided to lash out myself. I probably should have been more thoughtful but, what is done is done."

    The reason I wrote that was to point out that I was not without fault. My hope is that instead of attacking each other we can possibly be more thoughtful and understanding in our responses I realize this for myself and others. Perhaps you did not understand my meaning.

    Regards,

    Tim C.

  7. #77
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    Dec 2010
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    Garden Valley
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    This has been really disappointing to see this thread turn so sour, there are (some) legitimate issues that could be discussed in a manner that would be informative and productive, but that wasn’t exactly what happened. I wouldn’t bother to try and argue the issues any further, as I think most folks minds are pretty set. The personal insults get usnowhere.

    Meanwhile....
    There are some pretty big threats to our fisheries, issues that frankly make these seem like a trivial joke in comparison. The proposed Pebble Mine being a prime example of a threat of epic, catastrophic proportions, is currently as likely as ever to become a reality. Anyone who is not scared straight by that prospect really needs to understand the risks now before it’s too late! It would also be an embarrassment of equal proportions if we are not able to get everyone on board to put up a substantial fight!

    The point? If we care to keep the Pebble Mine from becoming a reality, and address many other substantial threats, we are going to have to build and sustain broad coalitions...including some folks who we don’t entirely agree with on everything. A bunch of petty bickering amongst ourselves is equivalent to chopping off our own foot to spite our toe... There are many powerful interests here and abroad who would love nothing more than to see us divide ourselves further and further and further into a whole bunch of marginal “niche groups” with zero effective lobbying power. We need all the friends and allies we can get; let’s not help the folks at Westlands (for instance) to gain more power and sway than they already have?
    We need concerned anglers, and non anglers, fly anglers and gear anglers, guides... we need biologists, geologists, geomorphologists... we need engineers, photographers and video producers, bloggers, lawyers, and yes politicians too. Etc, etc, etc

    We will need all the help and co-ordination we can get, and these kinds of flame wars aren’t the way to do it. I’m not singling any one person out here, I’m hoping this is a friendly (but urgent!) reminder to ALL. It’s my sincere belief that everyone who posted here ultimately wants what’s best for the fish; so while it’s important to have discussions and differences of opinion, it is more important to remember that we are debating with people who ultimately are on our side, and that there are much bigger issues we can and should be uniting behind.

    Sorry for the rant, but someone really needed to say it imo
    JB
    "Lord help me to be the person my dog thinks I am"
    - unknown

  8. #78
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
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    Santa Rosa, Calif
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    You guys are just howling at the moon- We could all vote to the right or all vote to the left...The politicians will all get rich and all the fish will perish and the only ones that suffer is the fisherman....Don't tell me what's wrong TELL US HOW TO FIX IT !!!!!!
    Carl Blackledge
    Last edited by Carl Blackledge; 08-28-2019 at 07:16 PM.

  9. #79
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
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    Sutter Co and the KMP
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    Mark,

    Thanks for the responses and consideration. I've been reading your words for over a decade, and anyone who thinks you don't care hasn't been paying attention. I don't always agree with you but disagreement to me, is just that: disagreement, no more, no less.

    All anyone can hope for anytime we head into these discussions is that when you offer up an opposing opinion, that it gets consideration.

    We all have our own personal biases based on our own past experiences. My bias is towards science that only draws conclusions based on real data, not anecdotal observations.

  10. #80
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    Jan 2005
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    Sutter Co and the KMP
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darian View Post
    Good (emotional at times) discussion. I've digested the info provided by all and want to make a preliminary observation; I think I understand the purpose of adding gravel, etc., too systems and what the anticipated result will be over the long run as evidenced by the stats provided. However, I've seen no mention of project performance standards or what constitutes a failure. Further, what, if any, action would be taken/planned if a failure is identified (adaptive management)???

    Brian Clemens raised an interesting point concerning project impact(s) on short-term local economy or, as in the case of TRRP, potential flooding of businesses/homes. In Brians case, it sounds like he's talking about potential loss of income from guiding when clients fail to materialize or potential damage to his boat(s)/gear. For local motels/ B&B's, etc., potential loss of income. Are those type concerns and mitigation, if needed, considered in projects of this nature???
    Darian,

    Any notion that this project has been anything but a huge benefit to the local economy (both short and long term), is nothing short of bizarre. First there's the benefit of construction, which puts some locals to work, but mainly brings in out of area contractors and subs, who boost the economy while they're working. Materials and ancillaries purchased locally, etc.

    Then there's direct response to the project: Less than 30 or so permitted, predominantly local guides to BLM limiting permits to 100 post project with guides not only coming from all over CA but out of state. Angler foot traffic going from chirping crickets pre-project, to fall Gore-Tex hatch levels post project. I'd say there's been a carry over to other watersheds, because there's significantly more anglers fishing steelhead everywhere, most of whom started on the Trinity.

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