Salmon and steelhead spawning gravel at Sailor Bar. Here they go again...

[Brian Clemens]

Once again I am not against restorations projects and I'll leave my 2 cents and opinions off this thread, as it seems I'm in the wrong. But I have the same concerns as dozens of guides and fisherman alike on the trinity river but I'm the only one that has the balls to speak up. So guess I wont, I'll keep doing what I'm doing, doing my research and when it's time I'll bring it up.

I know who I have talked to, chatted with on both sides of thiss restoration project up here. I have talked to the guys that are head of the show, floated with a few of them down the river, and till this day the guides that joined me are still scratching our heads as it makes no sense. I have talk to a great number of guides, ones that have been on this watershed almost as as long as I have been alive, they are not for this project, i have had personal conversations with a few individuals that work on the trrp projects and you would be shocked to hear what they have said. I cant say who it is as to protect these individuals from anything that may happen to them for what they have told me, but let's just say there are loop holes in there work. But again what do I know I'm just a guide who has no degree, no knowledge of water and hasnt been on the water 30+ years of my 38yrs of existant. Unfortunately to these trrp employees that's all I am, a dumb guide that's mad they most up a hole I use to catch fish in. Which is the furthest from the truth. I want this river and all rivers to be healthy and thriving, it's up to us to do it. But when it's done the way that it has been done with no increase in numbers, projects completely failing, filling in, blowing out and so on, then maybe it's time to step back, study our wrongs, figure out what we did wrong and fix it for future projects. Clear cutting and dumping gravel isn't the answer on any river, the power of a river is exponential, a river moving 20mph in just 2ft of what has the power of 62lbs per square inch, you cant stop that. But if done right you can nudge her in this direction or that direction delicately, definitely not quickly or abruptly. You cant change mother nature, shes gonna do what shes gonna do, but we can nudge her a little bit.

Again all for it, if done right. Measure twice cut once, not measure once and cut a few times and hope it fits.

[tcorfey]

Brian, keep up the good fight, these others show their lack of sincerity and their lack of commitment, intelligence or knowledge by criticizing others and then hiding behind their screen names. I really appreciate it when a person stands up for what they believe in and then signs his name to it as you do.

That was also a very generous offer you made to this person behind the screen name fishtopher. I hope he/she takes you up on it so they can gain some direct knowledge from you and your associates many years of experience on the Trinity river. No one else whom commented here stepped up the way that you have and you should be proud of that fact.

Regards,

Tim Corfey

[mogaru]

Is fishtopher going to take up Brian's offer and finally find out his degree is not helping him to see all the mistakes are being made with river restorations ???? chick, chick chick.........quack,.......someone doesn't want to eat his own words with a dose of reality..............

So you all know how this fishtopher thinks, this is what he wrote on 4-19-2019 on another thread : "It's a bunch of pretentious fly fishermen who want to exclude other user groups. This is why everyone hates fly fishermen".

[Darian]

Fishtopher,.... I'm not sure where the following comment: ".... To say there is no transparency or oversight is not accurate at all" came from. If it was directed at me I assure you that you've mischaracterized my intent. I was attempting to find out the info you provided for myself. Not to accuse anyone or anything. You're becoming too judgmental on this. So, I'll read the info you provided and you'll have to agree to stop jumping to conclusions about what's behind questions asked/observations made while attempting to find out additional info.

[mogaru]

Ummmmmmmmm, dude, Fishtopher is a professional biologist with a MS degree in fisheries biology, and is on the river working more days than you. He doesn't need you to show him around, he already knows it.

Wow didn't know fishtopher had an older brother.........hahaha. FYI collegue degrees open your mind and makes peoplemore tolerant and respectfull of others opinions, specially those that due to their jobs are able to see the outcome of some river projects. I believe and trust some of Brian comments.

[Fishtopher]

The issue I have with Brian's statements is they are entirely based on hearsay and rumors. I have given multiple instances of actual science-based metrics that the TRRP uses. There is no shortage of information on the TRRP website. Channel rehab is one important piece of restoring the river and the science says it works. I understand he has concerns and there are certainly things that can be improved upon, but to say every project is a failure is disingenuous at best. We have already seen great improvements in juvenile outmigrants which coincides with the advent of the TRRP. A combination of channel rehab, flow regime, and gravel augmentation is directly responsible for this. There are a multitude of reasons why this hasn't translated into higher returns that were covered previously. The sheer amount of experience working for the program is astounding. Pretty much every scientist working for the program has a graduate degree or higher, they know what they are talking about.

[Fishtopher]

Fishtopher,.... I'm not sure where the following comment: ".... To say there is no transparency or oversight is not accurate at all" came from. If it was directed at me I assure you that you've mischaracterized my intent. I was attempting to find out the info you provided for myself. Not to accuse anyone or anything. You're becoming too judgmental on this. So, I'll read the info you provided and you'll have to agree to stop jumping to conclusions about what's behind questions asked/observations made while attempting to find out additional info.

Sorry Darian, not directed at you at all. I should have been more clear with my statements. Supposed transparency has been an issue talked about several times in this thread. I will edit.

[mogaru]

Poor fishstopher, with all his science,collegue degree can comprehend why the gravel they dump on a run, travels five miles down the road filling areas it should not fill and in worst cases destroying really viable spawning grounds.......later, frustrated, he tries to equate it to a few more fish to save their "desk science". Don't be a chicken, take a trip down the river with Brian and he'll show you the real outcome.......or maybe you don't want to see the real cold facts.

[WLREDBAND]

Well, what was a useful and productive discussion, has now devolved into the usual acrimony and personal insults based on which side of the issue you stand on. Time to check out even though this issue should probably be discussed more.

[JasonB]

Once again I am not against restorations projects and I'll leave my 2 cents and opinions off this thread, as it seems I'm in the wrong. But I have the same concerns as dozens of guides and fisherman alike on the trinity river but I'm the only one that has the balls to speak up. So guess I wont, I'll keep doing what I'm doing, doing my research and when it's time I'll bring it up.

I know who I have talked to, chatted with on both sides of thiss restoration project up here. I have talked to the guys that are head of the show, floated with a few of them down the river, and till this day the guides that joined me are still scratching our heads as it makes no sense. I have talk to a great number of guides, ones that have been on this watershed almost as as long as I have been alive, they are not for this project, i have had personal conversations with a few individuals that work on the trrp projects and you would be shocked to hear what they have said. I cant say who it is as to protect these individuals from anything that may happen to them for what they have told me, but let's just say there are loop holes in there work. But again what do I know I'm just a guide who has no degree, no knowledge of water and hasnt been on the water 30+ years of my 38yrs of existant. Unfortunately to these trrp employees that's all I am, a dumb guide that's mad they most up a hole I use to catch fish in. Which is the furthest from the truth. I want this river and all rivers to be healthy and thriving, it's up to us to do it. But when it's done the way that it has been done with no increase in numbers, projects completely failing, filling in, blowing out and so on, then maybe it's time to step back, study our wrongs, figure out what we did wrong and fix it for future projects. Clear cutting and dumping gravel isn't the answer on any river, the power of a river is exponential, a river moving 20mph in just 2ft of what has the power of 62lbs per square inch, you cant stop that. But if done right you can nudge her in this direction or that direction delicately, definitely not quickly or abruptly. You cant change mother nature, shes gonna do what shes gonna do, but we can nudge her a little bit.

Again all for it, if done right. Measure twice cut once, not measure once and cut a few times and hope it fits.

Brian, I’m all for honest criticism and suggestions on how to do things better. I’m all for voicing opinions and perspectives too, and I honestly meant no disrespect towards you personally. My issue was with the overall negative tone of your posts, and the level of factual inaccuracies in some of your criticisms. I think there are probably some legitimate criticisms that could be given, but many of yours grossly misrepresent the project as a whole in my opinion. Regardless, my main motivation for calling you out on this wasn’t personal.

The reason I have to call BS here is that we all do want the same thing ultimately; attacking the people who are working hard to achieve the very same goals we all have is not helpful. You probably do have some thought or suggestions that would have value to the process. Your positive input and suggestions would likely be appreciated and helpful. Something to keep in mind is that most (if not all) who work on this project have had to deal with a lot of very unproductive and uneducated insults, and worse...for doing a ton of work towards something we all want. I think having some respect for their perspectives is crucial if you want to have your concerns understood or addressed. Comments that allude to the project as a get rich quick scam for some are not at all helpful, nor are they accurate.