The Trinity River - Proposed Flow Changes

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I believe that it is possible that the DWR can and will tell you a big lie about why they are doing something with water flows.

I have been to local meeting about the Lower American River flows and felt like DWR was just letting us talk and then they were doing what they planned on anyway.

You are talking about billions of dollars here folks.....that is what counts....not fish or sports fishing.

.

[Brian Clemens]

Dont let TRRP pull the wool over your heads with oh its gonne help this and rearing habitat that.

If you havent had the opportunity to float the river, especially from Evans to Sky, give it a float. Their work is disgusting, its no longer called the River Restoration project but the River Devastation project. This river is designated Nationally Wild and Scenic, how you can legally alter that I still have no idea. Still looking into that.

Its unbelievable what they are doing to this river. If you check out the work recently done on the Lower Sac above the Cypress Bridge, you wouldnt even know any work was even done. It looks natural, they used rip rap (big rocks) to keep the islands and work done together so high flow doesnt blow it out, 80k+cfs this year and still looks great. Until on the Trinity, you pee in that river and it pushes rock all over the place. Back to the Lower Sac work, they didnt clear cut the whole area/islands down to do the work, they kept the trees, grass and brush (which is needed for habitat and holding back the banks) on the area being worked on again looks untouched and natural, they didnt use trees to build rip rap which looks like crap and lastly its not left looking a mess, like someone just threw some wood up in the air and see where it lands. The work on the Lower Sac looks perfect, unlike the work on the Trinity.

Cant count how many projects on the Trinity that no longer work, millions upon millions wasted for what. A few areas include, Sky Ranch, the side channel on river left above school house, then again river right below school house run, all filled in and unusable. How about the Guardrail run above Indian Creek Lodge on river right, that used to have a huge long side channel there, all filled in and unusable. How about the work they recently did above Steel Bridge, again all filled in and unusable, over and over and over again these projects fill in and dont work. With millions wasted on every single one.

Where are the studies that they are supposed to be doing to see if these projects are working? Phase 1- do the work, Phase 2- study the work, Phase 3- fix as needed. Nope, Phase 1, to next Phase 1, to next Phase 1, project after project after project. It never ends, oh another 11 proposed projects on the list as well.

This new "flow" increase will make the River unsafe to wade, and pretty much call it unfishable. After all my calcualtions, the local economy as well as guides will loose an estimated $850,000 between Feb 1st and April 22nd. This includes what guides will make, what clients pay to get up there as well as your everyday bank angler that doesnt hire a guide. Thats a huge loss of revenue to the local economy. Hard to bounce back from that.

To sum it all up
Aggressive gravel dumps and in-stream projects have severely impacted vital deep water compositions (adult sanctuary, holding-staging waters); transforming the upper reach into a shallow gravel raceway. Oct. 15 TR flows were reduced to the minimum (300 cfs.); fish and boaters literally had to bring their own canteen of water to navigate the shallows. Sadly, current minimum flows, coupled with the upper TR facelift reflect the original post- dam (60-70's) minimum flow allocation (150 cfs.), without deep water compositions.

I think a bump in flows would be a great ideal, but not 1800cfs, a nice 450 to 500cfs would be perfect. 300cfs is just way to low. Again the upper river now at 300cfs is shallower than what it used to be before the projects at 150cfs. Thats all these projects to is fill in the river, and there is less habitat each year after the high water.

I personally noticed more salmon spawning between Big Bar to Hayden Flat, than there was from Old Lewistion Bridge to Pigeon Point. What does that tell you, loss of proper habitat.

Based on TRRP's riddled track record, and how many millions vested, why should anyone believe new minimum flow recommendations (Feb-Apr) will increase juvenile habitats; just another experimental hip-shot to overshadow their inability to achieve restoration goals.

What about reestablishing new minimum flows (July-Oct (800cfs) and Oct to April (500cfs) to help compensate the lack of suitable juvenile and adult habitats? Keeps enough water going down for the fish as well as keeping the water cool when its needed the most

As we all know, normal flows late summer, fall, early winter have always been on the lower side, but come winter and early spring you have rains and snow run off that raise the flows on the rivers naturally. With the amount of secondary streams on the Trinity there is no need to ramp the water up that much. If they are letting 1800 out of Lewistion, by DC below Weaver creek its 2500, by JC below Canyon Creek 3500cfs. Thats just crazy, and all that work they just did in the Evans bar area is going to get washed out. HMMMMMMM isnt that interesting. The work they did was complete crap and thats one way to fix it and move it around, and if it happens it wont be for the better. Plus what a waste of water that will be. TRRP needs to stop playing the river gods game and let mother take its course and do what it does best.
Rivers and their fish goes through cycles, got to let nature do its thing.

Sorry for the rant
Just my 2 cents/opinion

As Bill put it, its all about the money, not the fish or the locals. MONEY always wins

[STEELIES/26c3]

Dont let TRRP pull the wool over your heads with oh its gonne help this and rearing habitat that.

If you havent had the opportunity to float the river, especially from Evans to Sky, give it a float. Their work is disgusting, its no longer called the River Restoration project but the River Devastation project. This river is designated Nationally Wild and Scenic, how you can legally alter that I still have no idea. Still looking into that.

Its unbelievable what they are doing to this river. If you check out the work recently done on the Lower Sac above the Cypress Bridge, you wouldnt even know any work was even done. It looks natural, they used rip rap (big rocks) to keep the islands and work done together so high flow doesnt blow it out, 80k+cfs this year and still looks great. Until on the Trinity, you pee in that river and it pushes rock all over the place. Back to the Lower Sac work, they didnt clear cut the whole area/islands down to do the work, they kept the trees, grass and brush (which is needed for habitat and holding back the banks) on the area being worked on again looks untouched and natural, they didnt use trees to build rip rap which looks like crap and lastly its not left looking a mess, like someone just threw some wood up in the air and see where it lands. The work on the Lower Sac looks perfect, unlike the work on the Trinity.

Cant count how many projects on the Trinity that no longer work, millions upon millions wasted for what. A few areas include, Sky Ranch, the side channel on river left above school house, then again river right below school house run, all filled in and unusable. How about the Guardrail run above Indian Creek Lodge on river right, that used to have a huge long side channel there, all filled in and unusable. How about the work they recently did above Steel Bridge, again all filled in and unusable, over and over and over again these projects fill in and dont work. With millions wasted on every single one.

Where are the studies that they are supposed to be doing to see if these projects are working? Phase 1- do the work, Phase 2- study the work, Phase 3- fix as needed. Nope, Phase 1, to next Phase 1, to next Phase 1, project after project after project. It never ends, oh another 11 proposed projects on the list as well.

This new "flow" increase will make the River unsafe to wade, and pretty much call it unfishable. After all my calcualtions, the local economy as well as guides will loose an estimated $850,000 between Feb 1st and April 22nd. This includes what guides will make, what clients pay to get up there as well as your everyday bank angler that doesnt hire a guide. Thats a huge loss of revenue to the local economy. Hard to bounce back from that.

To sum it all up
Aggressive gravel dumps and in-stream projects have severely impacted vital deep water compositions (adult sanctuary, holding-staging waters); transforming the upper reach into a shallow gravel raceway. Oct. 15 TR flows were reduced to the minimum (300 cfs.); fish and boaters literally had to bring their own canteen of water to navigate the shallows. Sadly, current minimum flows, coupled with the upper TR facelift reflect the original post- dam (60-70's) minimum flow allocation (150 cfs.), without deep water compositions.

I think a bump in flows would be a great ideal, but not 1800cfs, a nice 450 to 500cfs would be perfect. 300cfs is just way to low. Again the upper river now at 300cfs is shallower than what it used to be before the projects at 150cfs. Thats all these projects to is fill in the river, and there is less habitat each year after the high water.

I personally noticed more salmon spawning between Big Bar to Hayden Flat, than there was from Old Lewistion Bridge to Pigeon Point. What does that tell you, loss of proper habitat.

Based on TRRP's riddled track record, and how many millions vested, why should anyone believe new minimum flow recommendations (Feb-Apr) will increase juvenile habitats; just another experimental hip-shot to overshadow their inability to achieve restoration goals.

What about reestablishing new minimum flows (July-Oct (800cfs) and Oct to April (500cfs) to help compensate the lack of suitable juvenile and adult habitats? Keeps enough water going down for the fish as well as keeping the water cool when its needed the most

As we all know, normal flows late summer, fall, early winter have always been on the lower side, but come winter and early spring you have rains and snow run off that raise the flows on the rivers naturally. With the amount of secondary streams on the Trinity there is no need to ramp the water up that much. If they are letting 1800 out of Lewistion, by DC below Weaver creek its 2500, by JC below Canyon Creek 3500cfs. Thats just crazy, and all that work they just did in the Evans bar area is going to get washed out. HMMMMMMM isnt that interesting. The work they did was complete crap and thats one way to fix it and move it around, and if it happens it wont be for the better. Plus what a waste of water that will be. TRRP needs to stop playing the river gods game and let mother take its course and do what it does best.
Rivers and their fish goes through cycles, got to let nature do its thing.

Sorry for the rant
Just my 2 cents/opinion

As Bill put it, its all about the money, not the fish or the locals. MONEY always wins

AMEN BROTHER!

DWR has done the same on the American River. Each supposed 'gravel restoration' project has not only NOT provided new and/or improved spawning habitat but it has also ruined the best runs of historical and NATURAL spawning habitat by filling them in during winter flows.

DWR doesn't give a shit. It gives hush money to these half-assed, so-called restoration projects which on the surface seem great but are actually anything but... Anyone with any basic knowledge of river hydrodynamics and/or basic riparian and aquatic ecology... knows that gravel slung in a river and slopped around with machinery is absolutely worthless as it never stays put.

[hwchubb]

Thanks for your input on this, Brian. I’ve fished (well, tried) DC at 800 and Del Loma at 3000,and both those are unfishable if you’re wading. I’ve often wondered how much good the scorched earth policy was doing in some of the “improvement” areas, like all the areas they tore up along the campgrounds at Steiner Flat. They are eyesores-I assumed that there was some method to the madness though.

Your suggestion for slightly raised flows does seem to make more sense. I can’t imagine the 1800cfs flows being sustainable for 75 days during the next drought, not to mention the “all the water wasted on a bunch of fish” argument that it would support.

[Rossflyguy]

Dont let TRRP pull the wool over your heads with oh its gonne help this and rearing habitat that.

If you havent had the opportunity to float the river, especially from Evans to Sky, give it a float. Their work is disgusting, its no longer called the River Restoration project but the River Devastation project. This river is designated Nationally Wild and Scenic, how you can legally alter that I still have no idea. Still looking into that.



Its unbelievable what they are doing to this river. If you check out the work recently done on the Lower Sac above the Cypress Bridge, you wouldnt even know any work was even done. It looks natural, they used rip rap (big rocks) to keep the islands and work done together so high flow doesnt blow it out, 80k+cfs this year and still looks great. Until on the Trinity, you pee in that river and it pushes rock all over the place. Back to the Lower Sac work, they didnt clear cut the whole area/islands down to do the work, they kept the trees, grass and brush (which is needed for habitat and holding back the banks) on the area being worked on again looks untouched and natural, they didnt use trees to build rip rap which looks like crap and lastly its not left looking a mess, like someone just threw some wood up in the air and see where it lands. The work on the Lower Sac looks perfect, unlike the work on the Trinity.

Cant count how many projects on the Trinity that no longer work, millions upon millions wasted for what. A few areas include, Sky Ranch, the side channel on river left above school house, then again river right below school house run, all filled in and unusable. How about the Guardrail run above Indian Creek Lodge on river right, that used to have a huge long side channel there, all filled in and unusable. How about the work they recently did above Steel Bridge, again all filled in and unusable, over and over and over again these projects fill in and dont work. With millions wasted on every single one.

Where are the studies that they are supposed to be doing to see if these projects are working? Phase 1- do the work, Phase 2- study the work, Phase 3- fix as needed. Nope, Phase 1, to next Phase 1, to next Phase 1, project after project after project. It never ends, oh another 11 proposed projects on the list as well.

This new "flow" increase will make the River unsafe to wade, and pretty much call it unfishable. After all my calcualtions, the local economy as well as guides will loose an estimated $850,000 between Feb 1st and April 22nd. This includes what guides will make, what clients pay to get up there as well as your everyday bank angler that doesnt hire a guide. Thats a huge loss of revenue to the local economy. Hard to bounce back from that.

To sum it all up
Aggressive gravel dumps and in-stream projects have severely impacted vital deep water compositions (adult sanctuary, holding-staging waters); transforming the upper reach into a shallow gravel raceway. Oct. 15 TR flows were reduced to the minimum (300 cfs.); fish and boaters literally had to bring their own canteen of water to navigate the shallows. Sadly, current minimum flows, coupled with the upper TR facelift reflect the original post- dam (60-70's) minimum flow allocation (150 cfs.), without deep water compositions.

I think a bump in flows would be a great ideal, but not 1800cfs, a nice 450 to 500cfs would be perfect. 300cfs is just way to low. Again the upper river now at 300cfs is shallower than what it used to be before the projects at 150cfs. Thats all these projects to is fill in the river, and there is less habitat each year after the high water.

I personally noticed more salmon spawning between Big Bar to Hayden Flat, than there was from Old Lewistion Bridge to Pigeon Point. What does that tell you, loss of proper habitat.

Based on TRRP's riddled track record, and how many millions vested, why should anyone believe new minimum flow recommendations (Feb-Apr) will increase juvenile habitats; just another experimental hip-shot to overshadow their inability to achieve restoration goals.

What about reestablishing new minimum flows (July-Oct (800cfs) and Oct to April (500cfs) to help compensate the lack of suitable juvenile and adult habitats? Keeps enough water going down for the fish as well as keeping the water cool when its needed the most

As we all know, normal flows late summer, fall, early winter have always been on the lower side, but come winter and early spring you have rains and snow run off that raise the flows on the rivers naturally. With the amount of secondary streams on the Trinity there is no need to ramp the water up that much. If they are letting 1800 out of Lewistion, by DC below Weaver creek its 2500, by JC below Canyon Creek 3500cfs. Thats just crazy, and all that work they just did in the Evans bar area is going to get washed out. HMMMMMMM isnt that interesting. The work they did was complete crap and thats one way to fix it and move it around, and if it happens it wont be for the better. Plus what a waste of water that will be. TRRP needs to stop playing the river gods game and let mother take its course and do what it does best.
Rivers and their fish goes through cycles, got to let nature do its thing.

Sorry for the rant
Just my 2 cents/opinion

As Bill put it, its all about the money, not the fish or the locals. MONEY always wins

Unfortunately $850k is pennies compared to a $5 billion a year cash cow.

[Bob Laskodi]

YIKES Brian! As of today, 640 guide permits have been issued for the Trinity River. And that number only represents permits, not the number of guides (since some well known fly shops have many guides operating under their single permit). And you're trying to convince me that the TRRP is doing bad things and hurting the quality of the fishery and it's all about the $$$$$??????

[ycflyfisher]

Dont let TRRP pull the wool over your heads with oh its gonne help this and rearing habitat that.

If you havent had the opportunity to float the river, especially from Evans to Sky, give it a float. Their work is disgusting, its no longer called the River Restoration project but the River Devastation project. This river is designated Nationally Wild and Scenic, how you can legally alter that I still have no idea. Still looking into that.

Its unbelievable what they are doing to this river. If you check out the work recently done on the Lower Sac above the Cypress Bridge, you wouldnt even know any work was even done. It looks natural, they used rip rap (big rocks) to keep the islands and work done together so high flow doesnt blow it out, 80k+cfs this year and still looks great. Until on the Trinity, you pee in that river and it pushes rock all over the place. Back to the Lower Sac work, they didnt clear cut the whole area/islands down to do the work, they kept the trees, grass and brush (which is needed for habitat and holding back the banks) on the area being worked on again looks untouched and natural, they didnt use trees to build rip rap which looks like crap and lastly its not left looking a mess, like someone just threw some wood up in the air and see where it lands. The work on the Lower Sac looks perfect, unlike the work on the Trinity.

Cant count how many projects on the Trinity that no longer work, millions upon millions wasted for what. A few areas include, Sky Ranch, the side channel on river left above school house, then again river right below school house run, all filled in and unusable. How about the Guardrail run above Indian Creek Lodge on river right, that used to have a huge long side channel there, all filled in and unusable. How about the work they recently did above Steel Bridge, again all filled in and unusable, over and over and over again these projects fill in and dont work. With millions wasted on every single one.

Where are the studies that they are supposed to be doing to see if these projects are working? Phase 1- do the work, Phase 2- study the work, Phase 3- fix as needed. Nope, Phase 1, to next Phase 1, to next Phase 1, project after project after project. It never ends, oh another 11 proposed projects on the list as well.

This new "flow" increase will make the River unsafe to wade, and pretty much call it unfishable. After all my calcualtions, the local economy as well as guides will loose an estimated $850,000 between Feb 1st and April 22nd. This includes what guides will make, what clients pay to get up there as well as your everyday bank angler that doesnt hire a guide. Thats a huge loss of revenue to the local economy. Hard to bounce back from that.

To sum it all up
Aggressive gravel dumps and in-stream projects have severely impacted vital deep water compositions (adult sanctuary, holding-staging waters); transforming the upper reach into a shallow gravel raceway. Oct. 15 TR flows were reduced to the minimum (300 cfs.); fish and boaters literally had to bring their own canteen of water to navigate the shallows. Sadly, current minimum flows, coupled with the upper TR facelift reflect the original post- dam (60-70's) minimum flow allocation (150 cfs.), without deep water compositions.

I think a bump in flows would be a great ideal, but not 1800cfs, a nice 450 to 500cfs would be perfect. 300cfs is just way to low. Again the upper river now at 300cfs is shallower than what it used to be before the projects at 150cfs. Thats all these projects to is fill in the river, and there is less habitat each year after the high water.

I personally noticed more salmon spawning between Big Bar to Hayden Flat, than there was from Old Lewistion Bridge to Pigeon Point. What does that tell you, loss of proper habitat.

Based on TRRP's riddled track record, and how many millions vested, why should anyone believe new minimum flow recommendations (Feb-Apr) will increase juvenile habitats; just another experimental hip-shot to overshadow their inability to achieve restoration goals.

What about reestablishing new minimum flows (July-Oct (800cfs) and Oct to April (500cfs) to help compensate the lack of suitable juvenile and adult habitats? Keeps enough water going down for the fish as well as keeping the water cool when its needed the most

As we all know, normal flows late summer, fall, early winter have always been on the lower side, but come winter and early spring you have rains and snow run off that raise the flows on the rivers naturally. With the amount of secondary streams on the Trinity there is no need to ramp the water up that much. If they are letting 1800 out of Lewistion, by DC below Weaver creek its 2500, by JC below Canyon Creek 3500cfs. Thats just crazy, and all that work they just did in the Evans bar area is going to get washed out. HMMMMMMM isnt that interesting. The work they did was complete crap and thats one way to fix it and move it around, and if it happens it wont be for the better. Plus what a waste of water that will be. TRRP needs to stop playing the river gods game and let mother take its course and do what it does best.
Rivers and their fish goes through cycles, got to let nature do its thing.

Sorry for the rant
Just my 2 cents/opinion

As Bill put it, its all about the money, not the fish or the locals. MONEY always wins

I'll be responding to this in the near future. None of these criticisms are remotely legit. Mr. Clemens opinions however are shared by many and have been since the beginning of this project and I think are worthy of discussion.

There have been few major ecosystem battles that have actually been WON in my lifetime and the 2000 ROD and the resulting flow and geomorphic restoration efforts are at the top of the list.

[Brian Clemens]

Hey Bob
The actual number of permits is 100 per year. For the 2017/2018 season not all permits were given out. Each guide that guides the Trinity must have a permit. 1 guide 1 permit no more and no less. Now the tahoe national forrest permits allow more than 1 guide under it. However it is limited to a specific number of guide days. Where as the Trinity permit has no limitation of days, but each guide is required only limited to pay and up front fee for the permit and a 3% fee on each paid trip.

Looking forward to your response ycflyfisher.

Sorry for my rant. Just sick and tired of the fish getting the short stick. They take their native water sheds by installing dams, they take their water to send down south and left with a tickle of bath water now destroying the only home they have left. For what some money in their pockets they have to be stopped. It's getting old. Time to put our foot down and fight

[ycflyfisher]

I can’t imagine the 1800cfs flows being sustainable for 75 days during the next drought, not to mention the “all the water wasted on a bunch of fish” argument that it would support.

First, if anyone wants to make the argument that water is being wasted on fish, let 'em make that argument. They lost this battle 17 years ago. No amount of arguing is going to change that.

Second, I think you're making an assumption that they're going to run the river at a constant 1800cfs 24/7 for the duration of the period. That alone would account for 75% of the total flow allocation for a critically dry year. Not gonna happen. 1800cfs is the proposed peak. Much like the proposed peak for this year's spring hydrograph (highest of the 5 water designation classifications) was 11,000cfs. We ran @ peak for 5 days this year.

I think that everyone else might be making the same assumption because there is WAY too much trepidation about what should obviously be nothing but good news.

The total flow volumes in the ROD simply cannot change. The only thing that can change is the release schedule.

[Bob Laskodi]

Not according to my source, Brian. And I checked this morning with someone who has access to that info and looked it up. The number was 640 permits. As for the 1 guide 1 permit thing, I did not confirm that this morning and am going from previous info which may (or may not) be current. I do know that in the past that multiple guides were allowed under a single permit on the Trinity and the older info I have is that those operators were "grandfathered in" and allowed to continue that practice. And my same source told me this morning that when he pulled into the Topps parking lot this morning guide boats filled up all the spaces between Topps and Burger King waiting for their clients. He also told me that it was a "freakin' zoo" out there today with boats on some stretches and some stretches were relatively quiet. Funny, how the "freakin' zoo" stretches are the popular guide floats. But I tend to avoid those stretches myself so it really doesn't impact me. I do agree with the notion that the rampant damming and water diversions in the past have seriously harmed the fisheries. I also know that the RoD discussed previously has taken a positive step to restoring some of that previous wrong doing and we're better off now than we were in the 1970's/80's when I first started fishing the Trinity. And I also agree with the notion that the incredible guide traffic on the Trinity is having a significant effect on the quality of the fishery and yet I don't see many guides talking about the negative effects they bring. But I sure do hear a lot of B&M from guides about how the TRRP has filled in their best fishing holes with spawning gravel (and yep, that's happened) and how the restoration efforts are "wrecking" the river. But yet, that spawning gravel supports wild reproduction that we all want without (hopefully) having to resort to more hatchery clone fish. And hopefully, the restoration efforts will bear fruit in the future, but right now it's anybodys guess as to if they will. I guess it's a pick your poison thing. I'm kinda willing to give up a few holes to support more wild fish production but that's just me. Good fishing and good luck out there Brian, and I'm really not trying to pick on you or single you out, but your rant struck a nerve and I was a bad boy and responded with my views on the current problems with the Trinity. And I personally don't consider the TRRP to be the problem that you do.

Hey Bob
The actual number of permits is 100 per year. For the 2017/2018 season not all permits were given out. Each guide that guides the Trinity must have a permit. 1 guide 1 permit no more and no less. Now the tahoe national forrest permits allow more than 1 guide under it. However it is limited to a specific number of guide days. Where as the Trinity permit has no limitation of days, but each guide is required only limited to pay and up front fee for the permit and a 3% fee on each paid trip.

Looking forward to your response ycflyfisher.

Sorry for my rant. Just sick and tired of the fish getting the short stick. They take their native water sheds by installing dams, they take their water to send down south and left with a tickle of bath water now destroying the only home they have left. For what some money in their pockets they have to be stopped. It's getting old. Time to put our foot down and fight