Spear Fishers on the American river

[Tony Buzolich]

How can bringing a spear into the park be considered legal? Why not bring a rifle or shotgun into the park too and shoot some of those deer that are walking around on the lawn at Goethe Park during "legal" deer season? If anyone is going to ignore the rules of the park why not ignore hunting of any kind there as well? I guess you already are.

And as for "being legal", this still doesn't make it "right". Tony

[Sharkbait]

I can fully agree that there are laws being broken on the river, however I think that certain people here clearly do not understand which laws are being broken. I have personally seen laws broken on the river and while I can only speak for myself and my friends I dive with, I can say that 100% of the laws broken that I have witnessed have been broken by line fishermen and not those engaging in spearfishing.

When I am floating downriver, I am always on the lookout for bank fishermen and boats and I always make it a point to move to the other side of the river as far away from them as possible as I do not want to interfere with someone else who is fishing. This is common courtesy. The river is big enough for everyone to use and I don't wish to infringe on anyone else's space which is why I also keep my distance from other people when I am bank fishing. These are not "your" fish or "your" river just as it is not mine. Everyone can enjoy the sport they choose to engage in and everyone can share the water. Not only is that good sportsmanship, but it is the law.

I'm sure that the vast majority of people here are law abiding sportsmen and I've had a few good conversations with line fishermen on the river. I've even pointed a few thankful people towards some large shad schools I've seen while diving. I've personally had problems with only a slight fraction of fishermen, however there are a few bad apples who seem to be ruining it for other people and I've seen quite a few people here on this forum who seem to fit that category. I'm sure that there are bad apples on the spearfishing side as well, but I do not know these people and I cannot be judged for their actions. Over the past few seasons I've seen numerous threats towards divers from fishermen on the river. Things I have personally been witness to are:

-Threatening/intimidating divers with boats or other watercraft (I have personally had some wackjob in a boat do donuts in the river so close to me and my dive buddy that we were within 10ft of the boat's propeller)
-Rock throwing (whether in an attempt to scare fish or hit divers, I do not need to explain the safety concern here as well as the illegal interference in legal fishing activity)
-Fishermen saying they will tie on the "largest trebble hook" or "largest lead sinker" they have and cast at the divers. While I have not yet seen this happen in person, I have seen this threat posted on this forum on at least two occasions. Those threats have since been deleted for obvious reasons.
-Implied shooting of divers ??? I don't think I need to go in to this one. Nuff said.

For anyone who is confused about any laws being broken either on the forums or on the river by line fishermen that has not already been posted, let me clarify.

PENAL CODE
SECTION 422-422.4

422. (a) Any person who willfully threatens to commit a crime which will result in death or great bodily injury to another person, with the specific intent that the statement, made verbally, in writing, or by means of an electronic communication device, is to be taken as a threat, even if there is no intent of actually carrying it out, which, on its face and under the circumstances in which it is made, is so unequivocal, unconditional, immediate, and specific as to convey to the person threatened, a gravity of purpose and an immediate prospect of execution of the threat, and thereby causes that person reasonably to be in sustained fear for his or her own safety or for his or her immediate family's safety, shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail not to exceed one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison.


Harbors and Navigation Code Section 655 Operation of Vessel

Operation of Vessel

655. (a) No person shall use any vessel or manipulate water skis, an aquaplane, or a similar device in a reckless or negligent manner so as to endanger the life, limb, or property of any person. The department shall adopt regulations for the use of vessels, water skis, aquaplanes, or similar devices in a manner that will minimize the danger to life, limb, or property consistent with reasonable use of the equipment for the purpose for which it was designed.

655.2.
(a) Every owner, operator, or person in command of any vessel propelled by machinery is guilty of an infraction who uses it,
or permits it to be used, at a speed in excess of five miles per hour in any portion of the following areas not otherwise regulated by
local rules and regulations:
(1) Within 100 feet of any person who is engaged in the act of bathing. A person engaged in the sport of water skiing shall not be
considered as engaged in the act of bathing for the purposes of this section.
(2) Within 200 feet of any of the following:
(A) A beach frequented by bathers.
(B) A swimming float, diving platform, or lifeline.
(C) A way or landing float to which boats are made fast or which is being used for the embarkation or discharge of passengers.
(b) This section does not apply to vessels engaged in direct law enforcement activities that are displaying the lights prescribed by Section 652.5. Those vessels are also exempt from any locally imposed speed regulation adopted pursuant to Section 660.


Bottom line is, for a group of people who seem to be up in arms and outraged over laws they are assuming to be broken when there is no evidence of any law being broken, you do not seem to care much about any other law out there and break many laws yourselves in pursuit of imposing your opinion on others. A prime example of this kind of behavior is lane splitting. Lane splitting for motorcyclists is something that is perfectly legal, however there are many people out there who are adamantly opposed to it. That does not give people the right to open their car doors on the road or attempt to run someone off the road simply because of a difference in opinion on what should and shouldn't be legal. Sharing the road is the law. Sharing the water is the law. Out of all the threats I have seen made and all of the laws I have seen broken, so far all of these have been done by line fishermen. I have seen zero threats to fishermen by spearfishermen and I have seen zero laws broken by spearfishermen. I can assure you that me and my friends are well aware of the no weapons in the parkway regulations and that we are very careful as to not break this law. I cannot speak to the actions of others that I do not dive with in regards to this. I participate in the activity legally, I do not break the law, and therefore I do not owe anyone an explanation for my actions and I certainly will not react kindly to those who insist on threatening me or harassing me on the river. I also personally know a park ranger who patrols the American River Parkway and we have had many discussions on the laws and legalities of what we are discussing here. The people I dive with are just as knowledgeable about the laws if not more so than anyone on this forum as it has the possibility to affect us much more directly than any of you. My best advise to you is to be an adult and share the resource. Nobody is going to wipe out the striper population of the river. There are far more large fish that come in from the Sacramento river and the delta than there are resident fish, and they all spawn. Diving the river at different times of the year, I see the populations fluctuate with the runs. This is something you cannot see above the water. What is going on is fear mongering plain and simple by people who simply don't like what other people are doing in an attempt to demonize a sport because they refuse to accept change. You never had to share the water with divers before, and now you do. While I can see your point about not liking that fact, it is something you need to accept and everyone who is on the river needs to treat each other with mutual respect.

What I am surprised at however is the vast amount of fishing line, lures, rods and reels, empty bait packages and garbage, beer cans and other things that I find littering the bottom of the river that line fishermen leave behind and are completely oblivious to being only above the surface of the water. I have cleaned up far more than my fair share of trash from the bottom of that river in the past few years. I enter the water and I exit and I leave nothing behind. While I cannot blame any one individual for this type of thing, it boggles my mind how a group people can claim to care about the fish in the river when they are treating the fish's habitat like it is their own personal trash can. As was stated previously in this thread, spearfishermen are some of the most environmentally conscious people I know and we would like to see our resources protected, which includes the environment where we dive and where fish live. I do not want the stripers depleted anymore than any of you, and it may surprise you to know that spearfishing is actually much harder than line fishing and I come back skunked more times spearfishing than I do when I am line fishing. In the dozen or so times I have been out since the very first season, I have personally seen only 5 fish taken, with 4 of those being under 20 pounds. I've personally taken zero fish home so far. It is most certainly not like shooting fish in a barrel, as someone on this forum has mentioned multiple times but I cannot blame them for their ignorance of the subject. That said, if you do see someone hauling more than their limit out of the river, call caltip and have them reported. I will do the same. Method of take does not matter. Taking more than you are allowed or taking undersized fish is what matters, and we all want poachers busted. None of us want to see anyone abuse the resource and ignore the laws and regulations so that we all may continue enjoying what we love to do whether above water or below.

[Scott V]

Spear fishing on the American is 100% legal. This is what I have been told according to the law, in order for them to use their spear guns, they disassemble them prior to going to the river, once on the water they can reassemble and be perfectly within the law.

The reason the rangers or police will not come out is because they are not doing anything illegal.

And if anyone is going to attack them for taking fish, please raise your hand if you have NEVER taken a fish in your life. If you have never taken a fish, that was your choice, but the LAW states they can take 2 fish!

I have talked spear guys while they were in the water and they were kind to me, but then I wasn't being a total jerk to them and asking stupid questions like "Where is you car parked". I wouldn't answer that question if someone asked me either.

Learn the laws and regulations before you attack someone who is more than likely doing everything PER THE LAW!

[MendoFish]

How can bringing a fishing knife into the park be considered legal? Why not bring a rifle or shotgun into the park too and shoot some of those deer that are walking around on the lawn at Goethe Park during "legal" deer season? If anyone is going to ignore the rules of the park why not ignore hunting of any kind there as well? I guess you already are.

And as for "being legal", this still doesn't make it "right". Tony

Fixed that for you.

In all seriousness- It is fishing equipment. Once there are no bands, or even furthermore no spear, all it is is a lightweight metal tube that posses less harm to anyone than a stick found on the ground.

No one is spearing deer or anything else on PARK GROUNDS. We are passing through. What a gross over exaggeration. And you guys no damn well you are only using that law to try and avoid having us on the river, you are not concerned with the "danger" of a speargun in the park or you would not have gaffs, knives, lures, or any other "dangerous" fishing equipment that could be used as a weapon.

Please tell me what isn't "right" about us passing through with fishing equipment minding our own business? If anything threatening/intimidating us to try and keep us from our legal fishing isn't "right." In fact I believe they have a word for intimidation/threats to persuade someone from doing something for political views. Terrorism is it...?

[MendoFish]

Spear fishing on the American is 100% legal. This is what I have been told according to the law, in order for them to use their spear guns, they disassemble them prior to going to the river, once on the water they can reassemble and be perfectly within the law.

The reason the rangers or police will not come out is because they are not doing anything illegal.

And if anyone is going to attack them for taking fish, please raise your hand if you have NEVER taken a fish in your life. If you have never taken a fish, that was your choice, but the LAW states they can take 2 fish!

I have talked spear guys while they were in the water and they were kind to me, but then I wasn't being a total jerk to them and asking stupid questions like "Where is you car parked". I wouldn't answer that question if someone asked me either.

Learn the laws and regulations before you attack someone who is more than likely doing everything PER THE LAW!

Well put Scott, I see you're here as well as NCKA. I don't get the hostility other than ignorance on the subject. How many less than honorable people come out from the city and blatantly disregard the law and trash that place and kill striper wether intentionally or not. Are you following them, throwing rocks, or interrogating them?

If someone is openly poaching, call CalTip and the rangers. Regardless of the method of take. Stop targeting who you don't like. Period.

[Sharkbait]

Personal message I just received. I am not interested in private chat with you. If you have something to say, include it in the conversation at hand.

Hi Shark,

This is the thread about the Sac County Parks Regulation that bans anyone from bringing a spear to the banks of the American river:
http://www.kiene.com/forums/showthre...rfishing/page2 Basically, the only way to legally get a spear into the lower American would be to bring it by boat from the Sac river (not launching at Discovery, cuz that's park of the Parkway). The guy I saw spearing last Fri admitted he knew about the law he apparently broke, cuz he didn't want me to know where he parked. Do you consider yourself a conservationist spearfisher? What specific steps do you take to help protect and increase the populations of stripers in our rivers? I fish with de-barbed flies so that almost every single fish is (revived if necessary) and released without harm. I would never intentionally kill a big breeder hen. I've gone to meetings too, but how important is that compared to NOT KILLING the big breeder hens, which the vast majority of bigger stripers are.

Instead of pissing in a contest on the forum, why not help turn the discussion to Conservation, and what we can all do to INCREASE the populations of stripers in our rivers?

Best, Mark

Mark,

I wouldn't want you to know where I parked either. I also would not like to be followed. Why? Because that's creepy and I don't like being harassed and I don't want my vehicle broken into. I do not know you and I do not trust you. My actions of not wanting to provide you with information is not suspicious, just as that person you met on the river. Your actions in asking such questions are suspicious however because I'd rather not have you steal my vehicle or the things inside. Nobody in their right mind would tell you where they parked. What's your address Mark? What do you drive? What's your license plate? Where do you work? Yea.... those are questions that shouldn't be asked or answered. I cannot speak to the legality of the actions of the other person that I do not know, nor can you unless you visually witnessed a crime take place.

My post is not a pissing match. It is me being fed up with people who apparently are interested in threatening/harming me while engaging in legal activity. Whether you or anyone thinks that it is "right" or "wrong", that is your opinion and nothing more. You will never get anyone to agree on everything. Keep your opinions away from me at the river, and mind your own business until you visually see a crime or violation of the law take place at which point you may contact the proper authorities. I can guarantee that me and those I dive with will not be violators of the law but just as you I will keep an eye out for those that do.

My post is factual and is based on law and is not argued based on emotions like what I see here from the people on this forum who actively threaten other sportsmen. Unlike you, I have visually witnessed laws being broken. I do not assume or claim that someone "apparently" broke them. Your ignorance of the facts is not proof of guilt for someone else.

The rest is none of your business and I do not owe you an explanation... although I can guarantee that you have killed more stripers in that river than I have. Have a good day.

[Mark Kranhold]

Spear fishing on the American is 100% legal. This is what I have been told according to the law, in order for them to use their spear guns, they disassemble them prior to going to the river, once on the water they can reassemble and be perfectly within the law.

The reason the rangers or police will not come out is because they are not doing anything illegal.
And if anyone is going to attack them for taking fish, please raise your hand if you have NEVER taken a fish in your life. If you have never taken a fish, that was your choice, but the LAW states they can take 2 fish!

I have talked spear guys while they were in the water and they were kind to me, but then I wasn't being a total jerk to them and asking stupid questions like "Where is you car parked". I wouldn't answer that question if someone asked me either.

Learn the laws and regulations before you attack someone who is more than likely doing everything PER THE LAW!

This is exactly right and true! There's always a way around the system.

[Mark V]

MendoFish, you sure were right about spearfishers and conservation-- the spear guys on this thread may be candidates for Conservationist of the year!

Sac County posted a final determination about the Ordinance (9.36.060) against possession of spears on the American River parkway (banks):
http://www.regionalparks.saccounty.n...on%20Final.pdf

This March I called the Parks District at (916) 875-7275, and got a quick call back from a Ranger. She said that IS still their policy, referenced the above June 4, 2013 determination, and said that they will enforce it.

Asked, "If I see a guy spearfishing who apparently violated the law (e.g. no boat to bring him up the river from beyond the Parkway) and he's there slaughtering big stripers, will they enforce on them? She said yes, and said it will be helpful to give them all info, like if you know where they parked. That's why I asked the guy last Fri if he had a spear, knew about the law, and where he parked. All are entitled to their opinion, but I checked with the authorities before about what's legal and what's not.

I urge everyone who's interested in this issue to call the Rangers and express your opinion about how important it is (or not) for Rangers to enforce County Ordinance 9.36.060

So what's the total between you spearos this year and last? Want to weigh in? How many stripers and how big have you taken?

[MendoFish]

MendoFish, you sure were right about spearfishers and conservation-- the spear guys on this thread may be candidates for Conservationist of the year!

Sac County posted a final determination about the Ordinance (9.36.060) against possession of spears on the American River parkway (banks):
http://www.regionalparks.saccounty.n...on%20Final.pdf

This March I called the Parks District at (916) 875-7275, and got a quick call back from a Ranger. She said that IS still their policy, referenced the above June 4, 2013 determination, and said that they will enforce it.

Asked, "If I see a guy spearfishing who apparently violated the law (e.g. no boat to bring him up the river from beyond the Parkway) and he's there slaughtering big stripers, will they enforce on them? She said yes, and said it will be helpful to give them all info, like if you know where they parked. That's why I asked the guy last Fri if he had a spear, knew about the law, and where he parked. All are entitled to their opinion, but I checked with the authorities before about what's legal and what's not.

I urge everyone who's interested in this issue to call the Rangers and express your opinion about how important it is (or not) for Rangers to enforce County Ordinance 9.36.060

So what's the total between you spearos this year and last? Want to weigh in? How many stripers and how big have you taken?

How cute keep pushing the way you are and you will have none left out of spite. Not by me, but all the people you are going about the wrong way trying to beat. Even if you can get them to somehow enforce the weapons law(which you can't, it isn't a weapon and has already been determined not to be in certain circumstances) you will drive more people to kayak up and slaughter them. You guys are really ignorant with trying to get something done/stopped.

I'm willing to bet the only reason a speargun was ever brought up to be a weapon was from some crusty old cranky H&L guy that didn't like the spearos, rather than a citizen concerned about safety. Had to find a way to make your agenda it someway right?

Funny I don't see anything mentioned in there about pole spears. Only spearguns. You guys might want to work on your attitudes about sharing. Instead of teaching people to be more mindful and conservative about striper you are pushing them to hate you and not want to learn. Well played.

[MendoFish]

An excellent point I had not even considered playing a factor in the hatred.

Ironically a guide who makes a living selling the resource takes issue with someone who is taking fish legally. Oddly enough not one of the monster SB mounts I see at the various sporting goods stores/boat landings have spear holes in them, they all were taken on hook and line, and so were the hundreds of thousands of SB taken in all of the many Striper Derbies in this state that paid out for biggest fish. Not to mention the millions of sport caught SB taken in this state since the fish were introduced from the east coast. Not that I care about the sport take of a sport fish in a public waterway. Spears have probably taken I guessing 100 SB since it was opened. Even if the number were 10 times that it wouldn't be a drop in the bucket compared to what HnL takes. And don't get me started on the holier than thou catch and release crowd.


I get it that these guys are passionate about their sport, but to start inciting others to harassment, destruction of property and violence will only result in having the same visited upon them. Share that.