Guide Rate

[cdevine]

Chris,

Your last paragraph is what it's all about. This is my passion, and a legacy handed down from my father. I'm here to educate, share, and enjoy others company on the water. If I was a millionaire I would still guide, do presentations, and write. This is why the great creator put me on this earth. There is so much that goes into a being a successful guide, not just costs, but time. It's a 24/7 job. The feeling I get from providing my guests with a memorable day on the water, and the appreciation in their eyes and words means everything to me. Very moving. We are all so blessed to be able to fly fish, it's more than a sport, it's an awesome life. - J

Troutstalker- Well said my friend.. well said. That was perfect.

Also, one last thing. Did you learn on the water? You might not have landed 30 fish but did you pick up tips and techniquest that will help you down the road? That is invaluable to me. The guides that I've used have all helped me and my son. Get out there and enjoy the water!

[TaylerW]

When you book a guide, you are paying for access to knowledge. Coming from someone who has not lived this life, that review seems harsh. Say I have a client meeting me on the yuba at 8. I am there ready and waiting before he gets there. I was and clean my boat everyday. Then I prep gear, tie flies ect. Sure you see the 8 hours on the water, but the stuff you see, is barely half of the job. I am a independent guide as well as work for an outfitter. I have a brand new drift boat ($10,000) boat rods and reels ($4000), insurance ($600), fuel ($50-100). Think about that next time you say we make too much money. I am very proud of my craft.

[Gene S]

As I said, I am NOT picking on fishing guides. Simply that anyone who makes that type of income shouldn't expect to be tipped...irregardless of what their job may be. I will say this, I wouldn't ever feel obliged to tip anyone that makes that kind of money. Now, If I feel like a fishing trip or any other service provided was beyond expectations...I would definitely consider tipping. I would just say that when I pay that amount of money for that type of service, I believe I am paying for outstanding service in the rate. If I get that service, I believe I got what I paid for. If I don't, then I wouldn't book that service again. Either way, most of the time...I don't think about a gratuity being appropriate.

We are in agreement for the most part...

Lower paying jobs such as waiters, bartenders, maids, etc who's wages are based on receiving tips to make ends meet and who give above average service IMO deserve tips in the 20-30% range. Independent guide rates in some areas are now closing in on $500 a trip and I expect great service but don't feel obligated in any way in regards to a tip . The way I look at it guides who feel put out with low or no tips should either raise their rates or look for another job. There are a lot of jobs where business costs are much higher and physical effort far more demanding than guiding... where there's no such thing as a tip. An exception would be a guide who works for a shop owner and receive only a portion of the trip fee, then a tip might be considered if the guide gave exceptional service.

[troutless]

We are in agreement for the most part...

Lower paying jobs such as waiters, bartenders, maids, etc who's wages are based on receiving tips to make ends meet and who give above average service IMO deserve tips in the 20-30% range.[....] The way I look at it guides who feel put out with low or no tips should either raise their rates or look for another job.

Two comments. First, variable compensation is common for many well-paying jobs : people in sales, private sector upper management, financial industry, much of technology. Anyplace a person's individual performance is likely to have a high impact on business outcome, probably there is some incentive structure in place, because you want to incentivize and reward high performance. And I see fishing guides similarly, I don't tip flat across the board, the ones with more specialized expertise, that I learn more from, and that put out greater effort, get a bigger check at the end of the day. I think most people agree, people with more expertise/experience and that work harder should be compensated more. But my observation is whenever the words 'tip' or 'bonus' comes out, it sends the discussion to a weird place.

Second, as far as, 'should raise their rates'. It's not that simple. Like any other industry, there is sort of an established business model that all the players are bound to, to some extent. Clients do their calculations of whether they can afford a trip based on factoring in a tip, and, likewise, those tips are built into the business models of the guides. Again, part of the compensation structure. Rates for these types of services are always in a somewhat tight range, it's not like an individual guide is able to decide, gee, I think I'll just raise my rates and then not worry about tips. It won't work, unless everyone, on both sides, simultaneously decides to change how things are done, and that won't happen.

[Darian]

Hmmm,.... I get the point that guides/owners perform a service similar to sales but am not sure I see them as the same as salaried, salary+commission and/or bonus compensated employees. The incentives system cited is structured, "tipping" is not. Structured incentives may be memorialized in a formal agreement, "tipping" is not.

Following is what I've taken from posters in this thread so far:

1. "Tipping" is a personal choice.

2. No contractual agreement (real or implied) exists for "tipping".

3. In some cases, you're dealing with the owner/guide, in others a wage earner.

4. An owner/guide may change rates at will (but must remain competitive).

5. According to prior posts by some owner/guides in this thread, tips are not figured in their rates and whether offered or not is the choice of the client.

6. The investment in equipment, boats or motor vehicles, etc., on the part of an owner/guide is irrelevant to the decision of whether to tip or not.

7. Gratuities are given in consideration of receipt of some level of service (service includes guides ability to put the client on fish, knowledge/experience, personality and incidentals (ie drinks, lunch, etc.).

8. A guides choice, if a gratuity is not received for a prior trip, is to accept or decline a future request to book a trip from that client.

[johnsquires]

This is a very entertaining thread. Lots of good observations set forth. As with most issues these days, it's doubtful anyone will change their practice based on the opinions of others, but, hey, setting forth opinions is one of the reasons for having a forum.

And I guess the bottom line is if you don't like the show, you can always change the channel (Darien's #.

I'll share with you that I had a float plane pilot last year in AK who worked his butt off for us. I know he makes pretty good money, comparatively speaking, but I felt he went above and beyond. When I got home, I sent him a check for $100 as a tip. I was feeling guilty, second thoughts, because I thought maybe I was a bit cheap on the tip. About a week later he called me in CA and thanked me profusely and told me to call him for help or questions about anything in his area. Small price to pay for what I know I'll get in return.

[midger]

This is an interesting thread and I see no hard and fast rules on tipping coming out of it.

I do see a difference in whether the guide is working under a shop with some of the base amount going to the shop or working independently where 100% of the trip amount goes to the guide. I tend to tip the ones working under the shop's license a bit more because I realize they're getting less for the trip. I don't factor in how nice their drift boat is, what type vehicle they drive to the river in, or any of the other intangibles/tangibles others have mentioned as we all have "expenses" regardless of the work we do.

I don't mind tipping but I don't see it as an obligation that requires a set amount. Just like restaurant service where I tip based upon actual service received (not the food quality, restaurant ambiance, etc, but service received) I base tips on how the guide performed (not fish caught, not weather, not crowds on the river etc--things guide often has little or no control over)

I once had a well known guide out of a well known shop take myself and a friend on a well known river for the day. Folks would know him in an instant if I mentioned the name. No doubt he had a lot of knowledge of the watershed we were on that day, and he was the outfitter of record having other guides who worked for him. Basically all he did was row the boat and chat us up a bit. Every time he stopped the boat, he'd lay in the grass, take a nap, etc. Yes we caught fish, but not because of the guide. Rather in spite of the guide.

Did I feel obligated to lay a large tip on him? Not in the least. Again, it boils down to a service thing. I can row myself and do oftentimes. I want the guide to teach me something new. I don't need my hand held, but give me info on the watershed, the history of the area, the hatches that generally come off and when, and other pertinent info. They're in the service industry so provide a service.

The other two guides we went this trip ( 2 different shops and 2 different watersheds) were excellent and we tipped accordingly.

[Scott V]

I only have one thing to say on tips. If you don't get one, don't be upset. Some of us, like myself can not afford a guide. And when I can which has been maybe 3 times I had to save up for months just to be able to afford their fee. I wish I was able to tip, but the price for a guide in my book is just too expensive. $350+ is just way out of my budget.

I am not saying you are over priced, I am just saying their are people like myself that just can not afford it and are thankful for the few times we can.

[Darian]

johnsquires,.... Whether you agree with my attempt to boil down the wide variety of opinions in this thread or even like it, isn't really required. It would be nice if you could at least try to spell my name correctly (considering it appears at the head of all posts I make).

[TyV]

I only have one thing to say on tips. If you don't get one, don't be upset. Some of us, like myself can not afford a guide. And when I can which has been maybe 3 times I had to save up for months just to be able to afford their fee. I wish I was able to tip, but the price for a guide in my book is just too expensive. $350+ is just way out of my budget.

I am not saying you are over priced, I am just saying their are people like myself that just can not afford it and are thankful for the few times we can.

I am really glad to hear a lot of other fishers takes on this subject honestly. Only the occasional comment, without much thought or intelligence. I agree that there are a lot of factors in anything of this nature. However, I strongly believe that a guide should NEVER feel slighted when they don't get tipped. They should ONLY feel slighted if their clients don't recommend them to friend/family/others OR don't book them again. Tips for guides should not be expected. Of course they are going to get tipped in various ways and of various values...

I will say this, if I have a great day and would totally book a guide again and/or recommend them to others...I wouldn't do that if I felt like the guide felt stiffed for not getting a tip. You didn't get stiffed, you got paid and paid pretty well. That's just the facts.