Guide Rate

[Darian]

The quote in the title about sums it all up for me. Thanks for making that statement, johnsquires....

I retired some time ago and live on a fixed income. During this period, I learned that "taking care" of a guide usually means that the guide, in turn, will "take care" of you. Therefore tipping is important to a successful trip.

From one clients perspective, I like a list of charges on the guides/outfitters website that states whether gratuities are expected or not. That way I can decide whether I can afford a trip and plan for it. After all, a tip is part of the total cost of the trip for a potential client. The problem, for me, comes in when I'm forced to decide what is an appropriate tip (%). Unless I have some idea what a guide/outfitter expects, I'm always left with the feeling that I haven't done something correctly....

[bigfly]

When I was just starting out, I once declined a big tip from a client.
He was visibly offended....I never did that again...it's a gift from one to another.
There can be more to this tipping thing, than meets the eye.....

Jim

[Larry S]

How do you folks feel about "cow tipping?"
We all need to go fishing!
Best from Sun Diego,
Larry S

[cmcdhuibh]

I suppose you could always suggest paying it forward, if you feel uncomfortable about a clients tip if its inappropriate at the time.

[TyV]

I guess my feeling is there is no right or wrong answer - if as a guide you expect a tip for doing a good job, maybe you should let that be known, and if you are against the concept of tipping a fishing guide, maybe either let that be known before booking or try to book with a guide with higher rates or one who doesn't care if you tip. Because apparently, as has been proven here and on other sites, we're just not going to come to a consensus as to what is proper.

johnsquires...thank you so much for your post. I think that you summed up this thread and topic quite nicely. It is exactly the type of solutions and comments I was hoping for when I posted about something that troubled me. IF guides and clients alike adopted your approach and set expectations prior to trips...there wouldn't be any awkward moments or negative feelings.

My apologies to the original poster as this thread got seriously highjacked by my original comments. I have seen many of these types of discussions go sideways in a hurry. This had that potential and almost did. Thanks to most everyone for talking about a difficult subject and helping everyone sort through how they each feel about this topic. All in all...awesome!

[Wanderingblues]

My start point is usually 20%. I've never gone lower because, fortunately, I've never had a poor guide. I usually communicate my needs in advance- learn something new, hear a good story or two, and maybe put a fish in the net.

My favorite guide was on the Poudre. He called the night before and suggested a good craft brewery for dinner. Next day, his stream side lunch was legit, and he brought along a couple bottles of his own home brew IPA for sampling. We stayed out a good 2 hours longer than I ever thought we would, he improved my casting, and we caught a few fish. I tipped him well and later sent him a woodblock print I did of trout we caught. We still keep in touch.

[Jed Peters]

I've had this conversation with one of my best friends, who incidentally is considered pretty much undisputedly the best guide in my local area.

He always gets $60 from me, regardless of the day. I've also given him a hunski.

But that's him.

I've also had guys who basically half-ass it and get a half-assed tip. We're talking less than 10%.

Here's a guides costs on a $400 trip:

Gas: $50 (At least a tank on most norcal rivers, including his mileage from his house to the river, to the put in, back to his house.)
Shuttle: $20 (I've paid $25, but let's call it $20)
Flies, leaders: $20 (for the boat, let's just call this "actual use" and simply call it $20 even)
Lunch, snacks: $30 (for the client's food, not their own. This is a simple safeway sandwich, sodas, chips, maybe some peanuts cost)
Misc Costs: $20 (for the sake of argument, let's say wear and tear, boat costs, vehicle costs, tires, guide insurance, fishing license, equipment costs--amortized over, say, 2 years--which is the replacement time really)

Total Expenses (EXTREMELY CONSERVATIVE): $140

NET: $260 (again, for an independent guide, not paying out a shop or agency)

Hours for a summer float from a good guide (not including leaving their house): 5:30am at river WORKING to 8:30pm TAKE OUT. That's a 15 hour day. But this guide works extra hard. So let's say you fish in the winter, the guide has the boat IN THE RIVER by 5am, and out at 5pm. That's minimum 12 hours.

So, let's do the math:

$260 net divided by 12 hours = 21.66 dollars a hour.

This is AFTER the capital contribution of probably $30k is made (truck, boat, gear).

After tax? $15/hour take home. So that guide really sees only 180 bucks for the day. And no health insurance costs, retirement, etc taken out of that.

And you guys want "professional" guides? At less than 200 bucks a day?

Holy crap.

[Jed Peters]

Oh yeah, I should also point out that even when I fish with a guide that's a buddy I PAY THEIR FREIGHT....meaning of course I buy lunch, provide snacks, give money for gas, pay shuttles, access fees, etc.

It's what a "guest" does. It's called common courtesy and not being a leech.

[johnsquires]

So I did the following exercise:
I decided to try to figure out the occasions when I've used guides. As close as I can come, it has been around 20 to 25 times, but I'm sure (because I'm old) I'm forgetting some.

Then I tried to look at those occasions and asked myself if it was worth the money, if I was pleased with the guide, if I could have done just as well without the guide.

In retrospect, I can think of one time when I didn't care for a guide and maybe two instances where I think I could have done just as well without the guide.

I realize this exercise is not exactly on topic. But it was kind of fun to go back and think about this topic and I think the statistics are pretty revealing. I wonder if most guides did the same exercise, only regarding clients, how the figures would work out.

[ycflyfisher]

Oh yeah, I should also point out that even when I fish with a guide that's a buddy I PAY THEIR FREIGHT....meaning of course I buy lunch, provide snacks, give money for gas, pay shuttles, access fees, etc.

It's what a "guest" does. It's called common courtesy and not being a leech.

Since I'm the only one who mentioned that I've fished with guides, I feel inclinded to respond to this.

You're making a lot of assumptions here. I've just got some questions:

What if it wasn't the guide who was the one who had thousands of hours of stick time (both on the rod and the oars, knew where all the put-ins/take-outs were, etc) on the watershed in question?

Do you think the "guest" should expect the guide to cover the "freight costs" and maybe even provide a tip?

Or should the "guest" just treat their friends who happen to guide just like they would any other friends?