Originally Posted by
ycflyfisher
Mike,
First of all, like Larry, I’ve got no horse in this proverbial race. I have no problem living with stripers. I’d have no problem living without stripers. If you don’t believe that, go back and read Tony’s original pike minnow conspiracy theory thread where I was the one who specifically pointed out that that there is no existing scientific evidence that predation by stripers was having a terminal impact on SRFRCs and that there is plenty of peer reviewed science that totally eliminates stripers as a factor in the recent collapse in abundance of SRFRCs.
I’d definitely agree with two of your points:
1- The arguments “for” in this thread require an abandonment of critical thinking and a whole lot of emotional bias. Bong hit levels of induced emotion and comical blame shifting of predation impacts. Nothing more.
2- There’s a strange and curious fixation with pitting and evaluating the predation effects of stripers on Chinooks when this should be a non-issue. As stated there is, as I see it, potential future concern that if the foodweb in the delta continues to degrade, predation by stripers could further imperil the already imperiled SRWRCs. I do think that potential concern is legit, but it’s way premature to hit that panic button on that issue at present.
I do think it’s important to note from whom these comical emotion based claims, stated as absolute fact are coming from. It’s also important to note whom is presenting these predation on Chinook based discussions as valid points of contention. You striper afficiandos are the ones driving the emotion and selecting to hammer topics for which there is no valid opposing view into entire herds of dead horses.
I do appreciate your attempts to elevate the discussion into the realm of reason.
All that said, I’m not remotely convinced that your conclusions are any less emotionally based or more correct, than either those of Tony or Ned. For starters:
1- First PM’s that evolved in basin, then stray pinnipeds, then blue herons, then American Shad, and now cormorants may be having terminal impacts on the population abundance of Chinooks. Really?
Talk me through this rationalization if you will. The median estimate of age 3+ stripers in the delta was about 1 million fish if memory serves. Stripers generally begin to become piscivorous in the last half of their second year of life if memory serves, and head towards being nearly 100 percent piscivorous by age 3. Like Tony and Ned, in one breath you’re telling us that 1 million+++ piscivorous stripers are not having a terminal impact on Chinook abundance (again I buy that) but in the next breath what amounts to a few thousand cormorants are a legit concern? How exactly does one rationally connect those dots that lead to the cormorant conclusion? Where exactly does the crew go from here? Pelicans maybe? I dunno. I hope you can at least respect why I find these impact deflecting views all you striper guys have as being nothing short of comically bizarre.
2- It’s the pumps, the whole pumps and nothing but the pumps. Like Tony and Ned, you place the entirety of the blame on the water apologists. Nothing else seems to concern any of you striper afficiandos. You guys seem to be so single mindedly focused on the top of the food chain down effects (downplaying predation and placing the entire blame on the pumps) that you seem to be completely overlooking the fact that the entire delta foodweb has taken a dump.
Mike, I’ve NEVER seen you or any of the striper crew ever once start a thread about the foodweb concerns. Not here, not on Blanton’s board, not anywhere. Can you point out a single thread where you guys are discussing the invasive benthic filter feeder that blankets the delta in densities that run over 1000 per sq. meter that are volumetrically filtering near twice the entire water column of the delta hammering the plankton abundance down to nothing? Or maybe a thread where you’re discussing how the native copepods have been replaced by less numerous invasive copepods that are harder for the fish to exploit and have reduced nutrient valve? Or how you’ve got an invasive plant species that is both decreasing turbidity and transforming pelagic habitat to littoral habitat.
Are you either completely unaware of those issues or do you simply think they aren’t a concern? If the later, how the hell does one rationally discount those concerns out of hand to the point where you haven’t started a single thread making other striper huggers aware of those issues? Not once Mike, have I seen you or anyone else attempt bring those issues to light as a legit concern. If you’re willing to explain why that’s the case, I’m willing to listen.
All the pelagic species are being hammered down. TF shad, LF smelt, D smelt and age 0 and age 1 stripers. Your beloved stripers are extremely dependent of the other 3 pelagics to maintain and increase abundance. You’re never going to have abundant predators without abundant prey. And you’ll never have abundant age 2+ stripers if most starve to death because there’s no plankton and no copepods for them to feed on in their first months of life.
There’s no one from what I can tell except the linesides congregation, that actually seems to think that your Sea Monkey solution of just adding water and watching everything magically spring back to life is actually going to work.
The water apologists have been sucking water out of the delta for numerous decades. Massive amounts of water for the last 3 decades. The pumps like predation by stripers, have failed to extirpate a single native species over that lengthy timeline. How many more decades exactly is it going to take of no extirpation by the pumps for the linesides congregation to conclude that exclusively placing emotional based blame on the pumps is not going to solve the myriad of very real problems regarding the delta ecosystem?
If you're willing to cite and accept the science that rules out predation by stripers is not having a terminal impact on chinooks, how is it that you ignore the science derived by the same agencies that suggests that diversion and entrainment are likely not driving the POD?
Jeeez! I make an informative post and go away for a week and get ambushed...
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