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Thread: Natural or Hatchery Bred....

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Petaluma Ca
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    Diminished genes pool is the price we are paying for allowing our steelhead envirioment to be trashed here. And wild fish they may be, but native......no. As we allow Sonoma County Water Agency to determine the water useage of our water shed (and apparently the Eel's), we WILL lose even these "wild" fish, as they WILL trash ALL of our steelhead envirioment. The ONLY water valuable to them is in a pipe and for sale! They even steal water from the REAL king salmon in the Eel River to water our phony king salmon in the Russian. We do deserve what we allow. Plant northerns, I say....they seem much more tolerant of poop and they will thin the squawfish.
    Competition at sea.....? When we eliminate the predator, the vermin abound. It is our duty to keep our predator numbers UP or we will be over-run by herring type fishes, squids and shrimps, to name a few. And we are not even close to historic salmanoid (predator) numbers. It is also our duty to control THE predator. As we have eliminated the Grizzly, we MUST harvest his portion of salmanoids, or again, be over-run.
    .....lee s.

  2. #22
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    Petaluma Ca
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    As a PS,
    We DO have a small supply of native steelhead. Those that are land-locked behind Warm Springs dam. They do not plant trout there, and there is a somewhat self-sustaining population of trout/steelhead in the lake....spawning up Dry Creek and Warm Springs tribs. AND the powers that be allow harvesting 5 per day of these fish and NONE of their "wild" cousins.....go figure.
    The biggest reason for a hatchery is so the capitalist bas--rds can continue to rape the envirioment. Without envirioment restoration, NATIVE fish are doomed. Man will continue to intrude....it is OUR nature.
    Last edited by lee s.; 02-10-2013 at 10:07 PM.

  3. #23

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    Lee

    before you completely write off the Wild steelhead in the russian. Sonoma state did a genetic study on the Steelhead and found at least 15 distinct populations of wild steelhead. The best thing that the dfg could do on the Russian is drastically cut back on the number of smolts that are being planted in the river or start doing some scatter planting so that they all dont run to the hatchery traps and they dont truck them down river. Also they Should be sued to stop planting hatchery adults where wild fish spawn.

  4. #24
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    shawn,
    Sorry, I am built to run logic and the record of what I have seen done REPEATEDLY and am FINALLY learning to accept what I cannot change. Like I said, Russian River water is LETHAL to salmonoids (by their own studies?). Read the signage at the hatchery. They admit to trying to modify the fish, genetically, to be temp tolerant and anti-fungal. Oh yeah......GMO steelhead by man, NOT nature. Change the fish.....NOT the water!
    I would certainly like to see the results of this study and see if they followed the #'s for at least a decade and when this study was done and how long they expect before the fish are ALL gone. Nature will continue to fill her niche. When the niches are gone, so too will be the occupants. Too bad man will not learn. The lessons of the Russian R's watershed will not be used on other rivers, except the lessons of degrade slowly.....so the frog doesn't jump out....or make too much noise. The lesson of draw the line at someplace good and KEEP them out (Pebble Mine anyone?) will be lost. We will still put rocks and sticks back into our polluted water and let ourselves feel good about our efforts. Who should be sued to stop, are the (right now) vineyards and SCWA....later it will be someone else.
    ....lee s.
    PS - I was just thinking. Right here we are steelhead users outraged at enviriomental degradation concerning OUR interests. On Dan's board, the striper users are outraged at the destruction of the enviriomental needs of THEIR pets. On a Shasta L. useage, our friends lament the loss of their fisheries due to restricted funding (= no planting) and mine pollution. Then we split our forces even further by dividing the FF'ers from the gear fishers from the bait fishers, yata yata. Divide and conquer ring any bells.
    Last edited by lee s.; 02-11-2013 at 09:58 AM.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    Garden Valley
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    Lee,
    I can't say I disagree with any of your points and sentiments. I do think that the tone of your posts is kind of self defeating though. Perhaps there is no justification whatsoever for optimism, but without a positive attitude towards what might be productive steps in the right general direction we stand NO chance of anything. I can understand why it may seem daunting and hopeless, but I'm happy that there are some who are still willing and able to put quite a lot of good efforts towards improving the situation and I think we should all be as positive and supportive as possible to any attempts towards improvement. I choose to run on a hopeful if not always optimistic outlook; otherwise I'd never go through the trouble to trying to catch one of these "ghosts" anyways...
    JB

  6. #26
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    Jan 2005
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    Sacramento
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    Question

    Lee,.... Can't disagree with your overall position. Divide and conquer may be an indication of collective attn' deficit disorder in humans. Most everyone migrates to the cause du jour until something else attracts their attention, so on and so on.... I share your feelings about vineyards over there. Nothing is more sterile than the ground beneath rows of wine grapes and dirt roadways probably don't dump as much silt into rivers/streams, either.... Aaarrrgh!!!

    Shawn,.... 15 separate strains??? I wouldn't have guessed that there was that many genetically pure, naturally spawning steelhead in the Russian, at all. Are the steelhead you mention sampled from Austin Creek, for example??? I looked on the Sonoma State website for the study you cited and found several but not the one that established the 15 distinct steelhead strains. Could you direct me to it??? Thanks.
    "America is a country which produces citizens who will cross the ocean to fight for democracy but won't cross the street to vote."

    Author unknown

  7. #27
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    Petaluma Ca
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    Jason,
    I agree whole-heartedly and do so much appreciate those carrying the ball. My point of view comes from someone who is finally in the twilight of their existence expressed on a recource that, in some locals, is also in the twilight of it's existense. Those short of time need EFFECTIVE measures executed. We do not install a couch into a lethally smoke filled room.....we FIRST remove the smoke.
    I DO support and am a member of several clubs that do support and perform such projects. However we may also be one of their biggest pains in the arse as we ask "why are we carrying the couch, instead of removing the smoke?". If one's area is lucky enough to have clean enough water....carry the couch and close it off to detrimental intrusion. If like at the Russian R., our air (water) is filled with smoke (pollution), DROP the danged couch, and MAKE them restore clean, cold air (water). We DO need focus! Until the lethal barrier, the Russian River, is fixed, all else is moot. Yes, we WILL help carry the couch, but rest assured, our expressed (or not) priorities are with the air. We can live on a lumpy couch....we cannot live with too much smoke in the air.
    I do applaud those of grand patience and long view. It is much more useful than our view of now, it seems.
    ....lee s.

  8. #28
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    Sacramento
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    Cool ....Redux

    Walter,.... For a lot of personal reasons and those cited by Lee, I haven't fished steelhead for many years and don't really anticipate doing so in the near future.

    I'm not sure that I agree with your statement that it doesn't matter which state you're in. IMO, It does matter what state you're in. For more reasons than I can list here, the current condition of the environment/habitat for salmon/steelhead/trout in this state is so much more degraded than that in other states to the northwest. Construction of the Bay-Delta Conservation Plan (BDCP) will add considerably to that degradation.

    While I agree that there are some fine steelhead and trout fisheries in this state, there is not one major river here that doesn't have a hatchery, a dam, a hatchery and a dam or a hatchery and multiple dams on it. In more than a few places, a hatchery and dam are placed on tributaries in addition to those on the main rivers. If the BDCP is constructed, there will even be more dams/hatcheries/tunnels for diversion of water built. I'm getting far off topic here....

    Jason,.... Believe it or not, I do maintain a healthy attitude about all of this even though it may appear otherwise at times. My major concern is that nobody seems to be working for an overall coordination of efforts to solve problems (e.g. approve, fund, design, plan, improve, support projects). Each entity involved in this appears to see themselves as an authority and are operating on their own, many times without consulting each other. I'm not giving up tho....
    "America is a country which produces citizens who will cross the ocean to fight for democracy but won't cross the street to vote."

    Author unknown

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Citrus Heights
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    76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darian View Post
    Walter,.... For a lot of personal reasons and those cited by Lee, I haven't fished steelhead for many years and don't really anticipate doing so in the near future.

    I'm not sure that I agree with your statement that it doesn't matter which state you're in. IMO, It does matter what state you're in. For more reasons than I can list here, the current condition of the environment/habitat for salmon/steelhead/trout in this state is so much more degraded than that in other states to the northwest. Construction of the Bay-Delta Conservation Plan (BDCP) will add considerably to that degradation.

    While I agree that there are some fine steelhead and trout fisheries in this state, there is not one major river here that doesn't have a hatchery, a dam, a hatchery and a dam or a hatchery and multiple dams on it. In more than a few places, a hatchery and dam are placed on tributaries in addition to those on the main rivers. If the BDCP is constructed, there will even be more dams/hatcheries/tunnels for diversion of water built. I'm getting far off topic here....

    Jason,.... Believe it or not, I do maintain a healthy attitude about all of this even though it may appear otherwise at times. My major concern is that nobody seems to be working for an overall coordination of efforts to solve problems (e.g. approve, fund, design, plan, improve, support projects). Each entity involved in this appears to see themselves as an authority and are operating on their own, many times without consulting each other. I'm not giving up tho....
    There are no hatcheries on the Eel watershed, those steelhead and salmon are very wild!

  10. #30
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    Question Eel River Hatchery....

    Fish Guru,.... Granted there is no formal hatchery or fish rearing facility on the Eel. However, there is an egg taking station located, I believe, somewhere in the fish ladder (at the top???) of Cape Horn Dam (Van Arsdale??). Eggs taken from Salmon/Steelhead at that station are propogated/reared at the Mad River Hatchery and are distributed over several watersheds, including the Eel. I'm not sure there's much difference where the propogation/rearing takes place.

    This quote is taken from a memo from, NOAA-NWSFC Tech Memo-27, status review of West Coast Steelhead - Artificial Propogation:

    "8 Northern California--The primary steelhead hatchery within the range of this ESU is Mad River Hatchery, established in 1971 by CDFG for fisheries enhancement (McEwan and Jackson 1996). The Mad River Hatchery winter steelhead stock was founded with steelhead eggs from the Eel River (Van Arsdale Fisheries Station, see page 74) and the San Lorenzo River (Cramer et al. 1995; Will footnote 14). Returns of steelhead to Mad River Hatchery were sufficient to supply the hatchery's production needs by 1974 (Cramer et al. 1995). Van Arsdale Fisheries Station continues to transfer Eel River steelhead eggs to Mad River Hatchery for rearing and subsequent release into the Eel River (CDFG 1994). The migration and spawn timings of hatchery stocks in northern California have been truncated since hatchery operations began (Cramer et al. 1995). In addition, both Mad River Hatchery and Van Arsdale Fisheries Station release unsmolted steelhead (CDFG 1994), which have been shown to survive poorly to spawning age (Cramer et al. 1995).

    Introduced Skamania-stock summer steelhead appear to be reproducing naturally in the Mad River (Cramer et al. 1995). An average of 96,000 juvenile steelhead of Van Arsdale Fisheries Station and Mad River Hatchery stock origins have been released annually into the Eel River Basin since 1970 (CDFG 1994). Approximately 233,000 juvenile steelhead of various stock origins are released annually into Mad River (CDFG 1994). All other basins in this area together receive about 75,000 steelhead per year (Cramer et al. 1995), for a total annual hatchery release of at least 404,000 steelhead within the range of the Northern California ESU (Fig. 13).

    9) Central California Coast--Warm Springs Hatchery on the Russian River is currently the only major steelhead facility within the region occupied by this ESU; however, release records show that a substantial number of steelhead from Mad River Hatchery are released in this area (CDFG 1994) (Fig. 14). In the early part of the century, steelhead from the Scott Creek Hatchery, themselves a mix of various steelhead stocks from Oregon and Washington, were widely introduced throughout the smaller river basins in this area (Bryant 1994). Although few out-of-basin stocks have been transferred into Warm Springs Hatchery, Mad River Hatchery and Eel River steelhead have been introduced directly into the Russian River as recently as 1991, and many river and creek basins in this area periodically receive Mad River Hatchery steelhead (CDFG 1994). Since 1971, the Russian River has received about 140,000 fish per year of various stocks (CDFG 1994, Cramer et al. 1995). Release records for hatchery steelhead in other basins occupied by the Central California Coast ESU are incomplete and are not reported here."
    (Italics added)

    The bulletin was written in the 1990's. So, not current. The entire bulletin contains some interesting info on how Skamania eggs/stock were distributed to the Eel and elsewhere after construction of a dam there many years ago. So, while it may be true that the fish in the Eel are wild, they're not genetically pure Eel river fish and many have been artificially spawned/reared.
    "America is a country which produces citizens who will cross the ocean to fight for democracy but won't cross the street to vote."

    Author unknown

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