Why is Sage still the number one rod maker?

[dynaflow]

With respect,I really tire of comments like "my $50 rod does the same job" etc.etc.
The epiphany happens when you cast the high end rod all day for a considerable time,as this sorts the dross from the gold, so to speak.
Enough said ...

[DLJeff]

But in conclusion, using a musical metaphor, if you're a good guitar player, you can sound good on a Mickey Mouse guitar

Whoa, let's not go overboard here. Knopfler could play Sultans of Swing on a Mickey Mouse guitar but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't sound the same as his Fender strat.

But let's go back and read Bill's initial question: why is Sage still the number one maker of fly rods? If I can summarize and paraphrase all at the same time, most of the posts conclude there are plenty of good, functional fly rods out there. Ergo, Sage doesn't have a monopoly on the physics, technical design, and manufacture of fly rods. Using my own experience, I think Sage did make a superior fly rod years ago. The old fiberglass rods sold at Dave Cook's Sporting Goods were heavy, slow and couldn't cast nearly as well as a Fenwick / Sage. Similarly, there were quality bamboo rods that cost a lot and there were cheap, mass produced knock-offs. But they fell apart the first time they got wet. I think it was Fenwick that came out with the first graphite rods - the old HMG's. That was a quantum leap advancement in fly rod design and function. Since then, it's pretty much been tinkering with aesthetics and savvy marketing. No one has come up with a true design change to knock them off the pedestal. They grabbed the title of "best fly rod", many of us lined up and drank the punch and have been believers ever since.

[hwchubb]

I think, for us old guys (or at least the ones who have been fly fishing since the 70’s or ‘80’s), the “best” rod definition might be a little different. I’ve only built a couple of single hand rods over the last 20 years with newer blanks, and almost universally found them wayyyy too fast / stiff. I still scrounge around for older HMG / Loomis IM6 blanks to build on if I can.

I think Sage’ biggest strength is marketing, not rod quality (not to say that the rods are bad quality, just that they aren’t that much better than many rods that cost half as much). Retailers have to push Sage, because they are required to stock a big inventory of them by Sage, so they have them, so they push them, so...

Overall, the quality of the rods on the market is as good as it’s ever been, although there are still some lousy $50 blanks out there. I proved that to myself. Also, no matter the rod price, EVERYBODY skimps on guide and finish quality compared to what you get if you build it yourself (Or buy from a custom builder like Bob Meiser, Gary Andersen, et al).

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

If you have a fly shop in California and want to survive you need to first have Sage, Simms and Rio (if you can get them).

The next two high end rods I would carry would be Orvis and/or Winston (in limited/popular sizes).

Then you need some imported recognizable fly rod lines like TFO and/or Echo.

Scott sells in the Rockies, T&T sells back East and GLoomis sells in Cabelas & Bass Pro Shop.



The 9' #5 line in 4 piece is probably half the sales of fly rods.

[DLJeff]

Hey Bill,
If I'm not digging into sensitive areas, could you ball park the inventory value of a fly shop the size of Kiene's? And the second question, are fly shops taxed on the value of that inventory, or only on the actual sales value? My local shop here has a rack of fly rods totaling something like 30 - 40 rods, maybe more. At say an average price of $600 the rods alone have a value of $18 - $24,000. I bet the fly line rack has at least 100 lines so there's another $8 - $10,000.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

At cost it could be around $500,000?

I don't think you pay inventory tax anymore in CA?



There are to kinds of shops, city shops and destination shops.

City shops make all the big sales of rods/reels, wader/boots, etc.

Destination shops sell more flies and guiding, on average.


Of all the folks with fly shops only a few made any money.

Most of us just had a job that we loved and we traveled a lot with our customers.


You have to enjoy helping and listening to the customers to survive in a fly shop.


Online has really hurt all the sops in California.

20 years ago there were about 60 fly shops in CA, now maybe 12?


Too survive today in a retail fly shop you need to have most of your money tied up in inventory that is all the items under $100.

"We" survived for 30 years, which is pretty amazing.


Most guides or shop owners need to be married to an RN (registered nurse = $100,000 yr plus benefits.)


Or have a lot of money......

[Jay Murakoshi]

Hey DL.. The inventory in my shop (closet) is around $30,000 +. With all my reels, rods, lines, leaders, etc...
My favorite rod is not a sage, Loomis, Orvis but it's a Fenwick Feralite fiberglass rods. Most of the time when I go fishing it's with a Fenwick glass rod, the 60's and 70's era. My favorite one right now is the FF605. I have a big collection dating back to the early 60's that I have picked up in garage sales, estate sales. When I first started fly fishing in 1971 I was introduced to the smith river in northern cal and the chetco in OR. My first salmon rod was a fiber glass Fenwick, then I bought a Fenwick HMG 9010... You old guys should remember that rod, stiff as a broom stick. I would love to fish one of my Fenwick fiberglass rods in Baja and test it out on a dorado, rooster or yellow fin. Except the air lines won't let me carry on a 2 piece rod.

[hwchubb]

Jay, I picked up an FF909 blank from Russ Chatham’s estate that I’m getting ready to build out into a 9 1/2 foot two hand overhead rod. It’s not like it’s autographed or has any certificate of authenticity, but I know it’s history, and I’m looking forward to fishing a rod that once belonged to him. Plus, it’s another Classic Fenwick to add to my small collection.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Very cool Wayne.....



At Kiene's we have a Lamiglass one piece fiberglass fly rod build from an Art Dedini "second" $10.00 blank by the late George Martin.

Many old timers bought blanks and the hardware from Dedini up on the Eel river after World War II.

[McFish]

It's interesting to read and summarize this entire topic. 1) Lot's of people say most rods today are really good. Few are saying a $200 rod is better than a $900 rod, but the Value ($/performance) is high with the cheaper rod. 2) Some people are saying you will really appreciate the expensive rod after a long day. I assume they mean because of the weight? If you are fishing 8's and above, maybe. 3) We get into marketing and buying habits. I feel this is addressing the why's and wherefores of items 1 and 2. If you have been persuaded by the marketing efforts and buy from the local shops (and I try to support local shops) you probably have never cast a Redington, Echo, or TFO, or any of the other rods under $200. Local shops can't afford the inventory of both high end and mid range rods. But after reading the thread, I would guess that these highly experienced fishers are happy with mid-priced rods; certainly most have one at least as a back up. My first back up rod was mid-priced Redington; it was cheaper than a blank and kit and I'm not an artisan when wrapping a rod. For weighted lines and big flies, it is my go to now.