Hatcheries vs. No Hatcheries

[OceanSunfish]

BillB,.... Saw your fish and was impressed, too. Good gto have that kind of fishing in your own back yard.

OS,.... When you consider that most of the people eligible to vote in this state and nationally don't, there's not a lot we can do. Frankly, I'm not sure our two party system is viable any longer. It certainly doesn't seem to make much difference in terms of fish & wildlife issues which party is in power (witness Democrat Feinstein is seen as an ally of Westlands and the former Republican admin was not overly helpful either).

I do believe and have recommended on more than one occasion that we should buy our own lobbyist/politicians and get into the game. However, I'm a bit leary of using environmental organizations (NGO's) lobbyists as they don't always have the same priorities. As an example of how things can change in this arena, I used to do a lot of volunteer work for California Common Cause, an organization that advocates for good government and has a bi-partisan membership. The work I did for them involved some tax policy/revision. Then the directors changed and tax policy was no longer of interest. So, maybe the solution is to attack on all fronts....

This subject is probably not appropriate for the BB anyway....

I think this "subject" should be appropriate..... I'm sick and tired of our of continual passive approach with regards to righting fish and game management. We need to get into the 'game'.

Perhaps the first step is to fight to restore the DFG to an agency that actually manages our Californian heritage: Fish and Game. Then ask that a separate agency be formed to handle conservation issues that the DFG seems to hogtied to, etc. "Hooks and Bullets" revenue is supposed to support sportfishing and hunting, not the study of the Brown Pelican.

Lastly, I see that Westlands left the 'table' of the Bay Delta Conservation Plan. I guess they weren't going to get 100% their way, so they left. It's sad that they aren't interested in 'balance' but rather the solution that will allow them to meet their (oversold)contractual water deliveries..... It's also sad that it comes down to party lines too and not what is right or good for us all.

http://www.sacbee.com/2010/11/24/320...a-habitat.html

[Dustin Revel]

I'm always amazed when the only response to be made to the point that we don't want to pay for government services boils down to that one word: accountability. I've been hearing that for so long it has become a cliche for those who want to justify why they don't want to pay for services they demand (government or private) for use when it suits them

Our government was built to resist change, and over the course of several centuries it has slowly transformed into this sad excuse we know it as today.

Private businesses are far more efficient than almost any government agency. The national forest service is the first that comes to mind. A private forest management company could do what the forest service does with half of the budget. In many ways government agencies are just around as a form of welfare; they create useless jobs that are completely unnecessary. We are literally supporting people through their lives to do unnecessary tasks.

If we give the state or feds more money they will just find a new and creative way to waste it, and frankly i would rather give money to support private industry.

I'm not trying to offend anyone here that may work for the government, there are plenty of hardworking men and women that work for the gov.

back to the original point...
I would love to see the closure of all coastal hatcheries (blue lake, rowdy creek, etc). I can live with having hatcheries on the american and other damned rivers (pun intended).

[Darian]

Dustin,.... I respect your conservative values but think you might be overstating the case about private industry being so efficient. If it was, there would be far fewer personal and business bankruptcy petitions filed for this district. During the year 2000, bankruptcy petitions filed numbered approximately 3,200 per month. According to recent reporting in the SacBee, there're many more filings per month now. Of course, we've just seen a wave of petitions filed by some of our largest industrial (GM/Chrysler) and financial institutions (AIG, ad nauseum).

Big agriculture (corporate farms, a private enterprise) has been granted so many subsidies from the feds and this state to make it competitive internationally they're almost to numerous to count (by type and dollar amount). They, themselves admit that they couldn't produce food or fiber products without illegal farm laborers but lets not get into that here. Efficient I think not.

After about 25 years of following both small, medium and larger businesses of all types in SoCal and NorCal, I came to the conclusion that the only real innovation and efficiency exists in small and medium business. The larger an entity becomes, the more bureaucratic or quasi-governmental in behavior it behaves. For example, almost all large IT companies (IBM in particular) partners with small/smaller businesses as a strategy to incorporate innovation, new technology and/or intellectual property. True, some of things are developed in house but not anywhere near all. Believe me, IBM is about as bureaucratic/quasi-governmental as it gets.

Now as to the word accountability. It's my experience that true accountability is only partially achievable by those in government given the need to be flexible in managing programs/resources. There's already a very large body of rules/regulations concerning everything from behavior on the job, labor issues, efficiency and protection of resources for government officials. They don't seem to be any more effective than those applied to private industry. The problem is that people will be people regardless of who employs them. Most of the problems we see in government were initiated by elected officials that came from private enterprise and stayed to become career politicians. Thus, the need to be informed and vote.

I'm not a fan of taxes anymore than anyone else but trying to hold government accountable by withholding funding (fees/taxes) just assures their programs fail. There's no free lunch and, no matter how hard we click our heels together, things will never return to what they were in the distant past.

[Phil Synhorst]

Private businesses are far more efficient than almost any government agency. The national forest service is the first that comes to mind. A private forest management company could do what the forest service does with half of the budget. In many ways government agencies are just around as a form of welfare; they create useless jobs that are completely unnecessary. We are literally supporting people through their lives to do unnecessary tasks.

If we give the state or feds more money they will just find a new and creative way to waste it, and frankly i would rather give money to support private industry.

Sorry Dustin, but private business is only efficient at one thing....making money. Turning over this part of our infrastructure to corporations, instead of keeping it in the peoples hands would be disastrous.

The govt. having control of "the commons", public lands, infrastructure, etc., means WE have control it. The problem is, as others have stated, most of us don't make our voices heard. We have the ability to elect officials who will put the right people in place to manage things properly, if they don't they can be voted out. What control do any of us have over a corporation? None, unless you can get enough people with A LOT of money to buy a majority stock, and run the company in the interest of the people....never gonna happen.

I'll give you two examples. My county and city sold off water delivery(county), and garbage service(city) to private corps. Right away both companies raised our rates, which we were told would not happen for a while; and keep increasing the rates at a higher percent than when controlled by local govt.. In the roughly ten years since, we have seen no improvement to either service.

All that being said, I do think govt. and private business can work well together. Govt. having control/oversight, and business getting the work done.


Now, to get off my soap box and address the original topic.

Until Californians collectively have the will to restore the ecosystem, for our own good, as well as that of the other creatures that depend upon it, hatcheries seem to be a necessary evil. Hatchery fish are not ideal, but possibly the reason we still have any Steelhead and Salmon in some rivers at all. Hopefully the day will come again, when the fish don't need our help to thrive, much less just survive.

[Frank Alessio]

I just returned from a great Steelhead fishing trip on the Grand Ronde in Oregon... We caught both Hatchery and Wild Steelhead... Everyone I saw catch fish had to wait until the fish came to hand in order to look to see if it had a fin clipped or not to tell if it was Wild or Hatchery. One of the local residents said to me tongue in cheek "Do you really think they actually mark every Hatchery fish they raise??? Other than the physical absense of the fin, what is the difference in these fish... Also if a Hatchery fish later spawns in the River is there any way the offspring differ from Wild fish that spawn in the river????

[Covelo]

Also if a Hatchery fish later spawns in the River is there any way the offspring differ from Wild fish that spawn in the river????

Studies have shown lowered fitness at least 2 generations out when hatchery fish spawn with wild fish.

http://www.physorg.com/news163845102.html

http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.o...4-511f97d9ae63

[Frank Alessio]

That is very interesting information.. Thank you

[aaron]

Studies have shown lowered fitness at least 2 generations out when hatchery fish spawn with wild fish.

http://www.physorg.com/news163845102.html

http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.o...4-511f97d9ae63

Thanks for posting this Covelo. There are several fly clubs spending time and money to trying to protect hatchery fish and promote them spawning. Why is beyond me.

[luckydog]

Thanks for posting this Covelo. There are several fly clubs spending time and money to trying to protect hatchery fish and promote them spawning. Why is beyond me.

The reason why is that we as anglers have different values and attitudes as seen in this thread. Sometimes these differences in values put us at odds with each other so nothing gets done other than lots of complaining.

You've got to give some credit to the clubs you mentioned. At least they've committed their time and money towards accomplishing something that they believe is worthwhile.

[mr. 3 wt.]

Something to think about. What if, for all you hatchery haters, they closed all the hatcheries. What now? Most rivers would be void of salmon and steelhead. The few that still have fish will all of a sudden have tons of added pressure. Or better yet, just close all rivers to salmon and steehead fishing all together. It would probably take a lifetime for the rivers even to remotely get back to so-called normal numbers. In order to get rivers back in shape we would also have to tear down damns. Hmmmm....which would mean less hydro-electric plants. Where do we get electric now after the damns are gone. More nuke plants? That's a good idea. Three-mile island, Chernoble ring a bell? Also, with the damns gone, where do we get water for the water hungry farmers? Or worse yet, our buddies down in so-cal, they have a lote of landscaping and pools down there that use a lot of our water.

What I see is a delicate balance of many many things here. Damns are not going away. Solutions, put a hatchery on it. Manage it as a hatchery fishery. A HATCHERY FISHERY, not a wild fishery. Yeah, mixing the two is retarded. Then all those studies could be valid. Basically, throwing the public a bone. We need the American, Mad, Feather and Trinity River hatchery to apease the masses. And I mean masses, everyone wants to be called a steelhead fisherman it seems like. Coastal streams and rivers should have strict regulation (most do) and be managed like wild fish fisherys. How hard is that? Seems to me like common sense to me. All this money and time spent bitchin about this and that could be spent on conserving and restoring what wild rivers rivers we still have. I bet most of these so-called steelheader never even fished the Mattole, S. Fork Eel, Garcia..........and hopefully most will be content just staying put on the forementioned rivers where the hatcherys are just pumpin out the fish. Trust me, you wild fish fishermen don't want these so-called steelhead fishermen that populate these lesser than rivers invading your river. I hope some of you guys see what I see.