Hatcheries vs. No Hatcheries

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

We have been discussing this same subject for decades now.

My first comment is to say that collectively we still don't understand mother nature all that well. Everyone seems to be an expert on this subject with a lot of "I think.." going on. I still believe even the best biologists don't have it all figured out yet.

Right now we are having a better return of King Salmon in some of the valley rivers. I believe this is due to the ocean food conditions more than anything. I predict that next fall will be even better for King Salmon in Nor Cal.

I think that the valley rivers being damed up totally need to have hatcheries but some of our fairly wild rivers like the Smith, Klamath, Trinity, Eel, Matole, etc should be managed differently.

Some of these rivers have tributaries that have no dams to restrict spawning so that is a different situation.

I think some of our rivers are healing up some after years of much less logging going on.

Some old dams are coming down now too.

I did hear the Feds are restricting the state anadromous hatcheries but who is to say there is any state money to run the hatcheries all that well anyway?

[OceanSunfish]

No hatchery fish!

Hatcheries are a band aid designed to keep fishermen and all similar interested parties placated and docile when it comes to ongoing water diversions, watershed degradation, reductions in water quality and quantity, loss of habitat, etc.. Remove the hatchery fish and it would be far more likely that fishermen, communities, etc would begin to stand up and require changes in how our watersheds are managed. Though fun to catch, hatchery fish are a pale imitation of the real thing, and their presence should serve as an ongoing reminder that something is wrong, and needs to be fixed.

Salmon and steelhead are our canaries in the coal mines with respect to water quality and watershed health. We should not accept their loss lightly, and we should not be bought off so easily with a few hundred thousand imitations of the real thing.

Accept the hatchery fish and you accept the status quo: a broken watershed. Expect more; there is no real reason that a hatchery ecosystem is the best we can do.

"Remove the hatchery fish and it would be far more likely that fishermen, communities, etc would begin to stand up and require changes in how our watersheds are managed."

I would like to believe this would actually happen but in all honesty, "fisherman" have become extremely marginalized....... Plus, we can barely muster up a coalition to fight Westlands, et. al. today! I mean, I've tried to literally shame many of my fishing friends to contribute to CSPA, but they won't bother!? Maybe, and just maybe, they just might pitch in a buck or two if there is a chance at winning a raffle prize..... ugh.

As far as "Communities" pitching in..... well, let me say that "communities" with the resources to do so are populated by most folks more interested in wearing out their thumbs on their phone's keypad while drinking coffee at Starbucks.... Let me provide further proof...... Santa Clara County, an area that has seen little setback in this recession, will spend $2 million to connect the walking/running/biking trails along Los Gatos Creek to other trails nearby allowing people to expand their workouts..... When interviewed on the radio, a 'person' was excited because that meant that person, who was training for a marathon, would be able to extend their run without having to run the same path twice or three times, essentially doing loops to get in their needed miles..... ugh.

Boy, $2 mil would go a long way to 'fight the good fight', wouldn't it?

Folks, that, in a nutshell, is what inhabits most of $$$$ rich California today. And, sadly, most in $$$$ rich California today don't give a rat's arse about steelhead or salmon, because if they did, we'd already would've had a revolution by now based on the returns of the past 3 to 5 years.....

We need to get real, real fast. Even Bob Franko left California and that told me a lot with regards to what kind of future we have for our fisheries......

Oh BTW, IMO, Hatcheries are necessary on rivers with dams that block fish from reaching their ancestral spawning grounds. Riverways that have seen little detrimental impact by man should remain wild fish only.

[Frank Alessio]

It is absolutely amazing what a 15 Hour drive does for a Fishery......

[Dustin Revel]

This thread does little but restate the obvious and offers few if any realistic ideas for solutions. IMHO, there's one truth in all of it. We all want/demand services from government but lack the will to pay for it. That's the way it's been for a very long time. Ergo, this situation will not likely be resolved in my lifetime....

Keep the hatcheries going....

First i would like to point out that i would like to pay the same amount i currently am but receive fewer services... however, the state and federal government are complete morons when it comes to conserving excess money; therefore, i would rather see my money (that would no longer be spent on the hatcheries) spent on stream restoration rather than buying $1000 hammers, $5,000,000 cogen plants (that never produced either heat or e-), or the $100,000 signs that tell us our money is at work (doing useless projects that only prolong our national misery).

We all know there is NO accountability when it comes to government spending.

but all this is irrelevent in terms of the original question.

[EricO]

"We all know there is NO accountability when it comes to government spending."

Dustin.....word.

Imagine what could be done to improve certain fisheries with even a small portion of that
wasted $ put into our rivers.

EO

[Frank Alessio]

And We (not me) Keep on electing the same old Democrats.... Boxer finkelstine Brown and expect sanity.......

[Darian]

I'm always amazed when the only response to be made to the point that we don't want to pay for government services boils down to that one word: accountability. I've been hearing that for so long it has become a cliche for those who want to justify why they don't want to pay for services they demand (government or private) for use when it suits them.

In the recent election, a proposition passed that requires a public vote to raise fees. We may live to regret that vote since licenses issued by DFG are paid for thru a fee. There're other fees that impact DFG in the same limbo. So, we bitch & moan about how low funding is for DFG and then approve an initiative that may even further limit their ability to raise funds to carry out their mandate.... How about holding ourselves accountable for some of our problems In the words of Pogo, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

[OceanSunfish]

I'm not the first to say: Democracy only works with accountability and Capitalism only works with integrity. We've hardly had both the past 10-15 years.....

Unfortunately, this State is so broken that the subject of this thread is, unfortunately, deemed insignificant by the general population when compared to all that ills this state.....

I would love to see concerns that we all share with regards to our Fish and Game be front/center on the floor of the State Assembly, but unfortunately, our "wheel" isn't squeeky enough (aka, rich enough)

So, what do we have to do.....? Do we need to raise enough funds to be able to support two full time lobbyist (players) and get into the ballgame? Until there is complete accountability in our government and complete integrity in our corporations, (or when hell freezes over) we'll need to play the game as is....... right?

[BillB]

I saw first hand today the results of a stream restoration project. I am very impressed!

[Darian]

BillB,.... Saw your fish and was impressed, too. Good gto have that kind of fishing in your own back yard.

OS,.... When you consider that most of the people eligible to vote in this state and nationally don't, there's not a lot we can do. Frankly, I'm not sure our two party system is viable any longer. It certainly doesn't seem to make much difference in terms of fish & wildlife issues which party is in power (witness Democrat Feinstein is seen as an ally of Westlands and the former Republican admin was not overly helpful either).

I do believe and have recommended on more than one occasion that we should buy our own lobbyist/politicians and get into the game. However, I'm a bit leary of using environmental organizations (NGO's) lobbyists as they don't always have the same priorities. As an example of how things can change in this arena, I used to do a lot of volunteer work for California Common Cause, an organization that advocates for good government and has a bi-partisan membership. The work I did for them involved some tax policy/revision. Then the directors changed and tax policy was no longer of interest. So, maybe the solution is to attack on all fronts....

This subject is probably not appropriate for the BB anyway....