Squawfish as Stressors

[ycflyfisher]

If you had gone to the assembly meeting last Tuesday you would have heard the term "stressor" brought up numerous times. It's a new word for me that I've never used before but it seemed to fit the discussion. Stressing the delta's water system was the obvious subject everyone there was dancing around. Fuller's attack on striped bass was simply a diversionary tactic that failed and she had to quickly amend her proposal. I believe that the plan was to eliminate the striped bass, eliminate the salmon, and in so doing eliminate fishermen from fishing. If there's no one fishing, there will be no one to complain about the lack of water and the dying delta. It Didn't Work!

As for the squawfish (I'm old school), they're just another nail in the coffin. They're not the only cause for the salmon failure, but they're a damn big one. Everywhere they exist salmon and steelhead have suffered. Sure, damming, logging, and siltation have all added to the problem too while at the same time improving the habitat for the squawfish.

All different kinds "stressors" are contributing to a failing enviroment and it all comes down to WATER. Our state is over-run with "illegals" ALL drinking water. The world population is growing beyond capacity and sooner or later everything is going to suffer and unfortunately our natural enviroment is first to feel the effects of limited supply.

Anytime some one attacks something you love, you respond aggressively. I love striped bass just as many others on this board love steelhead or tarpon or bird-watching, and if we can all contribute something toward saving a little bit of nature maybe our grandkids will get to see a little of what we've come to enjoy. And, if killing a few squawfish along the way helps save a few remaining striped bass and salmon, I'll bonk a lot more of them.

"Stressor” is far from a new word, and when used in biological terms it has a very concise definition. Might wanna look it up. You're literally attempting to redefine the term with your Squawfish conspiracy theory.

You can believe that AB2336 was gutted at the last minute because those politicians were all in awe of a large group of anglers all advancing squawfish conspiracy theories and the like, showed up to voice their obviously biased, "bucket biology" opinions. I chose to believe that it was gutted because those politicians that were advancing the AB for the ag interests were finally clued in by someone that was paying some attention to the fact their own state agency scientists have included the striper as one of the impacted species in the ongoing interagency POD studies and their own science was going to be the nail in their own coffin to their equally ridiculous striper predation argument. Only one of us is right. I'd be willing to bet old Mcdonald's entire farm, from the ranch house to the shithouse, to the E-I-E-I-O that it ain't you. Don't think I'm going out on a limb stating that your going to see a better written and thought out incarnation of the same AB again sometime in the future.

You striper guys can fight this one any way you want to. Fight it smart if you want, fight it aggressively with tons on knee-jerk emotion if you must. Fight it with your hearts and the clear bias that you all have if it makes you feel better. You can all admire your “passion” and your creative conspiracy theories for the fight after it's over and done.

Any even remote thought of fighting it with your head instead??? If so, as stated previously I’d bring yourself AND YOUR GROUP up to speed on the available for peer review science that has been conducted on the mechanism of the POD and the Sacto salmon collapse and stick COMPLETELY to arguments centered around what IS known. As previously stated, the science for the POD was largely on your side last time I looked at it and the science for the salmon collapse still is. Those politicians very own DFG staffers are confident enough that the main contributing factor to the salmon collapse IS deleterious conditions in the gulf of the Farrallons and the abundance breakdown largely isn't happening inland. I agree with the science. The science pertaining to the salmon collapse IMO is sound, and the 'problem' I think has been accurately identified, but the salmon crisis is far from over simply because the problem cannot be controlled and numerous other issues that could adversely affect Sacto fall Chinook abundance are looming in the background. But that's another thread.......

The POD and your stripers and the delta aren't my cup of tea and as stated, and aren't something I know much about. That said, the POD IMO is something of a "perfect storm" type collapse where there's lot's of SIGNIFICANT contributing factors working synergistically together to facilitate the collapse, and lots of other potential contributing factors that may or may not be significant. Predation by mature stripers IS a potential contributing factor (but not a significant one IMO and I think not significant in the opinion of anyone remotely familiar with the actual potential causal issues surrounding the POD).

Should you and yours continue to overlook this fact and continue to cook up insanely laughable, totally out of context, squawfish conspiracy theories and the like and and fail to accept and acknowledge the fact that your beloved linesides will eat not only migrating salmonids and the other 3 pelagics that are on the decline by the tonage, as well as YOY and yearling stripers given the chance, this "passion" of yours is only going to serve to destroy your own groups credibility IMO. The flyfishing subculture is the only one in the world that I'm aware of where the word "passion" can be interchanged without consequence with the word "stupid".

I'm just a fairly well read angler with an interest in fish and their ecosystems, with no preformed bias on this issue and no real interest in stripers or the delta in general. For disclosure, I do voluntarily belong to (not employed by) a group that IS listed as supporting the AB. I do not endorse their support of this AB. As someone who knows you if any bias exists it would be one that's receptive to what you had to say..... until you made the totally ridiculous statement by sticking to your squawfish guns that you're certain that native PM's are measurably impacting the abundance of the salmonids they've coexisted with for eons in the CV and of all things delta smelt that are totally isolated to the X zone of the Sac delta??? I ain't buying that BS at face value or any deeply discounted price. I'm just someone that's read enough about the POD/salmon issues to know that your credibility and obvious bias in regards to the issue at hand just hit the skids with that statement. Right then. Right there. Right now...... and there's nothing you can from that point on to get it back.

How far really do you think that this type of ridiculousness is going to fly when push eventually comes to shove when the well funded political interests you're fighting finally decide their ducks are lined in a row and they're armed with the experts who collectively wrote what I simply took the time to read? All of whom will be put in a position to point out the numerous fallacies to your groups twisted, unsupportable logic even though they don't support this AB (and none of them likely will)


The available science as stated IMO is very much in your favor. IMO it's the ONLY thing that isn't stacked against you and your group.

Fight it however you want to fight it. Fight it smart or fight it with biased, knee-jerk emotion. It's your fight and your time. If it were my fight I'd get familiar with the science and stick what is known about the issues at hand and form my argument around what is known and can be supported.

[Hairstacker]

ycflyfisher, you seem to make a lot sense but do you have to say it in such an obnoxious way?

[Dustin Revel]

well this thread has definately been good for a laugh. can we agree to dismiss the squaw fish theory?

[OceanSunfish]

"You striper fisherman" or "your group" ??

Geeze, don't we all enjoy fishing and shouldn't we all be fighting the 'good fight' as a united entity?

[Frank Alessio]

Kind of reminds me of the Hunters that say " What do those guys need those BLACK RIFLES for?"........

[lee s.]

ycflyfisher,
I know not your background but you sound well schooled and it sounds as if you may have a prominent desk nailed to the floor somewhere dealing with these problems. A desk that is bought and paid for by ag interests and developement interests. IMO those type people should have the nails driven through their feet also before driving them through the desk. It might just keep them at their desk and out of the field where often their "book learning" and lack of common sense application do more harm to our envirions than listening to some of the "bucket biology" gleaned from old, grey, rotund individuals that have had their feet out there IN the envirioment.
"As previously stated, the science for the POD was largely on your side last time I looked at it and the science for the salmon collapse still is. Those politicians very own DFG staffers are confident enough that the main contributing factor to the salmon collapse IS deleterious conditions in the gulf of the Farrallons and the abundance breakdown largely isn't happening inland. I agree with the science."
Being old, Eyetalian, and rotund myself, I NEED to keep it REAL simple. Our fish NEED water.....CLEAN water, especially for raising the babies. We are left with SOME water right now. However this water has TOO MUCH temperature, TOO MUCH turbidity, and TOO MUCH toxins in it. It is LETHAL to the fry. ANY scientist who ignores this condition in the search for solutions to the problem of decreasing resources as far as anadromous fisheries goes, is simply assinine IMO.
One doesn't need years of schooling to follow the increase in human intrusion with developement and agriculture and the corresponding decline in anadromous fisheries. It is obvious in ALL of our watersheds.
By the way, what is this POD you speak of and where can I find these on this machine.....a machine I am completely non-functional with.
TONY,
YOU GO MAN!!!! Even a LITTLE of your aquired knowledge and logic far exceeds the common sense of desk jockies such as these DFG biologists so far.
.........lee s.

[Darian]

This thread is beginning to slide away from discourse.... agree with the point that Pelagic Organism Decline (POD) is mainly due to ocean conditions. Altho, I'm wondering Is the Gulf of Farallons the water surrounding the islands How large (in square miles) would this gulf be Pelagic organisms are a much larger and diverse group of organisms than just anadromous fish and some are more mobile than others. I'm curious if POD is attributable to north/eastern Pacific Ocean conditions in general

If I recall correctly, Salmon originating from the Sacramento/San Joaquin River systems roam inshore/offshore waters off California/Oregon/Washington. If so, wouldn't they be able to escape the gulf to more productive waters.... Or, maybe I'm just not understanding this....

[matt johnson]

The POD is a name referencing the steep decline of several pelagic (open-water) fishes (delta smelt, longfin smelt, juvenile striped bass, and threadfin shad) in the freshwater portion of the Delta estuary. It does not have anything to do with the ocean.

The Gulf of the Farallones is an area of the Pacific just outside the Golden Gate where the upwelling of cold nutrient rich water occurrs in the spring and summer. This event drives the primary production of the food web in this part of the North Pacific.

The vast majority of the juvenilles of all four races of Central Valley Chinook salmon exit the delta/lower Sacramento River in the spring/early summer to meet this upwelling head on. Upon leaving freshwater and entering the ocean, these juvenilles need to find and eat lots of food RIGHT NOW or they don't make it. They do not have the energy stores to travel far up or down or out to find food.

Back in 05' and 06' there was a snafu with this upwelling. The juveniles did not have much to eat. Survival was really low. This is the best explaination for the Central Valley "Salmon Crash" in 08' and 09'. The "Salmon Crash" was experienced by all four races of Central Valley Chinook in 08' and 09'.

A healthier delta ecosystem, reduced water exports, better upstream spawning and juvenile rearing habitat for salmon, and more wild instead of hatchery salmon probably would have better buffered the salmon against the poor ocean conditions the juveniles faced in 05' and 06', and the "Crash" might not have been so dramatic.

Just my .02. Matt

[Darian]

Thanks for the explanation/info Matt.

[OceanSunfish]

A healthier delta ecosystem, reduced water exports, better upstream spawning and juvenile rearing habitat for salmon, and more wild instead of hatchery salmon probably would have better buffered the salmon against the poor ocean conditions the juveniles faced in 05' and 06', and the "Crash" might not have been so dramatic.

I agree. Fix the "house" first, then all of its inhabitants will not only benefit, but they will also be able to fend off the ocasional natural threats to their survivial.