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Thread: Respectfully....

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    Default Numbers and Some

    Thanks Darian. While it is imperative that we, as individuals, offer “encouragement” to individual fishers by sharing our knowledge with them regarding redds, handling of fish and all other ground level events, the most devastating problems are of a much larger scope. Habitat degradation, pollution and flows have numerous over arching issues that affect most who live in California. Organization is a necessity if fish and wildlife in this state is to survive and, hopefully, some day flourish.

    I spend many hours volunteering in Trout in the Classroom venues. While many kids are appear attentive only because they are not plugged into a gaming or audio devise I have often heard, “This is the best field trip ever”, or “Hey Mr. B look at this Mayfly larva.” “How do you know it is a Mayfly?” “Because it has six legs and three tails. I can see its gills moving!” We can only hope that these kids will be allowed to develop their curiosity and fondness for nature, in particular fish and their interrelated species.

    We have to be vigilant and dutiful in our quest but we need also to understand that somehow the message has to influence those who never touch a fly rod.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
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    Sacramento
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    7,786

    Cool Individual Efforts....

    Hmmm,.... Ya know, in making my last post, I was aiming at those problems of a larger scope where numbers really do count. However, in doing so I hope I haven't given the impression that I don't value individual effort. If I've done that, I owe all of you an apology.

    BillB's contribution certainly is an example of how to attempt to create a long term outcome by planting the seeds of knowledge among youngsters. Good for you.
    "America is a country which produces citizens who will cross the ocean to fight for democracy but won't cross the street to vote."

    Author unknown

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Truckee, CA.
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    963

    Default

    Bill, you nailed it.
    For my part, I just love hooking kids up with nature. I like to think of it as creating green voters, they'll be responsible in the future, hook'em now.
    It will take near revolution to take power away from westlands etc.
    All of us can try to affect a solution, got my limp handshack e-mail from Senator Diane F.
    Our water is gone without some serious heat. Speak now, or hold your peace.
    250,000 fish won't last long at the rate we're going.

    Jim
    Bigfly guide service helping fly fishers since 2002.
    Truckee river and Northern California waters.
    https://bigflyguideservice.wordpress.com//

    For best results, fish on the fish's schedule, not yours....

    BF

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    Porterville
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    427

    Default Individual Efforts

    Darian I concur and completely understand your post. While individual effort is important it pales in comparison to the task at hand. All affected, virtually the entire population, need to be informed and organized to make progress.

    Steelhead fly fishers are a very small community in the realm of those affected. The Venn diagram would show only a small circle labeled “Steelhead fly fishers” with many layers, every other stake holder group, extending outward. Maybe the categories, or identifying labels, need to be collapsed.

    Anyway for whatever its worth, a thought or two.

  5. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kiene View Post
    Think about this fact:

    The act of fly fishing for Steelhead has almost no measurable effect on Steelhead populations.

    By picking on the fly fishers here on this BB we are just wasting a lot of time.

    We need to be looking at the removing some more dams, cleaning up agriculture, stopping de-watering, reducing incidental catch while commercial salmon fishing, looking harder at the negative effect of hatcheries, fixing non-functioning fish ladders, cleaning up the water pollution, working on fixing the ill managed water level controls, modifying the Sacramento Delta pumping, police the logging that is left, watching developments in wild drainages..........get the picture.

    I would venture to say that over 99% of all fly caught Steelhead are released.

    It is nice that we are passionate about wild Steelhead but I think there are plenty of better things that we could put our energies into beside being so critical of each other.
    Totally agree, but I would not limit it to fly fishers. Is there a steelhead or salmon population in California that has collapsed due to sport take? Reversing that, is there a run that has rebounded because take or fishing was stopped? Many are so focused on what sport fishermen are doing, but their impacts are trivial when you look at the bigger picture as Bill outlined.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Agua Fresca
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    628

    Default

    But you would have to agree that if significant portions of the current population are headed right towards extinction, the effect of the individual angler is growing with every second.

  7. #27

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    I agree with a lot of what's been said. Doing stuff on the individual level can't hurt anything, however, if we don't want to see the extinction of our native salmonids it's going to take a lot of money and change in our water/energy practices. A few year's ago at a scientific conference focused on the delta, the top salmonid researchers in the state projected that our native salmonids could possibly be extinct within 50 years, that's how bad things look.

    You have to understand that California's native hydrology really doesn't exist anymore, or is only locallized to a few areas. A lot of west coast streams and rivers have turned into foreign environments to what our native species are adapted too, many different factors are involved in this, it's a very complicated subject really. Coupled with pollution and other stressors, you can start to understand why our native salmonids have it so rough.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Fairfield, CA.
    Posts
    2

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    Quote Originally Posted by wjorg View Post
    At risk of being offensive, which is not my intent, I want to point out that the effect, or lack thereof of the "older generation" on Salmon/Steelhead fisheries has been detrimental to their survival.

    Maybe its time to listen to us "younger generation" instead of telling us to shut up?

    Anything left of the fisheries will be solely ours in a short time anyway...its time for us to step up.

    Quote Originally Posted by wjorg View Post
    Guides have a huge influence on the people that fish with them. They can choose to be the true stewards of our resources. Many of you have pointed out their short term livelihood depends on the fishery. I'll leave that at that.

    If there is no measurable effect than you cannot estimate it either way? If it were measurable, it could turn out to be a huge effect?

    I personally am not here to pick on anybody. I've personally tried to better my posts and not come off so critical of an individual. Maybe an individual act or behavior, but not the character of the individual. Hopefully you have seen that over the years. Maye not if its only your second post on the board. : )

    I'm not here to blame old people. My point is the younger generation should be encouraged to take responsibility for fishery stewardship, and not be told the fish are invincible. That has been proven otherwise.

    I wish more of my "buddies" were as passionate as I am.

    Friggin' "know it all" OLD GUYS! Makes 'ya hate 'em, don't it?

    My question is, WHERE ARE ALL THESE YOUNG PEOPLE I'M SUPPOSED TO BE LISTENING TO? They aren't at F&G Commission meetings, testifying in front of Assembly Committees, calling their Congressmen, writing emails and letters to their elected officials, donating time or money or both to non-profit causes, showing up at Fishing Expos, participating in river/stream clean-up days... NOPE, those are all being done by "old guys". I would say the average audience age at the F&G Commission meetings in 60+. The last one I attended, I was the ONLY guy on my side of the room without SOLID GREY HAIR ( or ANY hair at all).


    It is almost impossible to get your generation to do anything that isn't selfish. ONLY 33% of voting age adults under 24 years VOTED IN THE 2008 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION , much less do anything else about fishery declines. And that was when Obama was crowned. That's pretty bad. You should go kick some of your young friends in the nuts for being so lazy and self-centered. At least the "old guys" show up and take part in the process.

    We can't get the younger generation to donate money to non-profit causes formed by "the old guys" to save and expand the fisheries, the young are too busy playing videos games, watching TV and getting fat. CSPA, Trout Unlimited, Recreational Fishing Alliance, ... all go BEGGING for money, even $25 MEMBERSHIP donations. For the most part, the young don't attend church, why don't they "tithe" 10% of their pre-tax income to save "their" planet, and donate 10 hours a week? 10 hours a MONTH? how about 10 hours A YEAR? Heck. it is even a TAX WRITE OFF!

    Have you ever attended a F&G Commission meeting, gone to personally speak with your elected officials to show how important it is to you? I read from another young generation poster on this board they would have driven to testify at Sacramento if it wasn't 5 hours away, and not to get into a pissing contest about that but it is a good example --- how many personal/sick days do people take to go fish/hunt? I know that person devotes a lot of time to advancing fly fishing and fisheries, but how long does a letter take to write? A phone call? 10 phone calls ?


    I wasn't even going to respond to this thread, but the "guide blasting" ticked me off the most. Yes, guides have a responsibility to teach their clients, but lets just "assume" a guide works A LOT and guides 250 days a year, averaging 2 clients a trip, and 30% are return customers. He probably sees 300-400 people a year. Let's assume he can influence 20%or somewhere less than 100 a year.

    HOW MANY PEOPLE do you have in your FACEBOOK, MYSPACE, Twitter.. accounts? I have a Facebook "friend", the son of one of my "real" friends, with 16,000+ " Facebook friends". He regularly complains offline about evil old people, businesses, no free healthcare... , but his Facebook posts are all about going to the mall, shopping, music, celebrities, partying, hooking up, hating his job, boss, parents... and he wonders why we tune him out. He hasn't said anything interesting since he was about 8 years old.


    Complaining accomplishes nothing. TAKE ACTION!!!

    I'll assume since you claim to be young, that you earn less than the median income for the Sacramento area, Why don't you start sending a weekly check to support fishery groups equal to 10% of your gross income. They could sure use and extra $80- $100 bucks a week to pay for the lawyers they need to fight the corruption that has destroyed the fisheries. Get your TIGHTWAD friends to kick down some money while you are at it. Just grab their wallet take 1/2 of their cash, and tell them you are making a donation in their name. They do want to save the planet, right?

    If you could get just 1/2 of your young friends to write a letter to Sen. Boxer and Sen. Feinstein and tell them that doing the bidding of Westland Water Dist. and Stewart Resnick is UNACCEPTABLE and both of them should return the MONEY donated to their campaigns, along with letters to all the other legislators who take political donations from "unsavory" characters, and get 1/2 of each of THEIR friends to do the same, us OLD GUYS could let you young guys take the reins and we could go fishing.

    Contact the Federation of Fly Fishers. They have a conservation committee, and we need some of your young blood and energy. BTW, I think I'm the youngest person on that committee, I'm 49 years old.


    We can't tell you to "shut up" if you and your generation don't even SHOW UP.





    .
    Last edited by 01troutnut; 05-15-2010 at 05:45 PM.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    North Highlands, Ca.
    Posts
    2,220

    Default

    Well said 01.

    Best first post I've seen.

    I'm 48, I think the '70s "get out and do" ethic really needs reviving.

    Walter, not meaning to knock you personally, but the river clean ups I've been on and put together myself have been manned by many more greybeards than youngsters.

    Ed
    Last edited by Ed Wahl; 05-13-2010 at 04:48 PM.
    Elwood: It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.

    Jake: Hit it.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Sacramento
    Posts
    7,786

    Question Participation....

    01troutnut,.... I'm not sure that your rant is entirely accurate/justified. As a group, older people certainly don't participate by voting any more than the younger generation does. Meg Whitman is a perfect/public example and not an exception. Many older voters vote the party line....

    Actually, young people participate in many governmental activities, state/federal, daily thru internships and volunteerism. Also, there's the annual event where high schoolers appear at the legislature and conduct a junior version of that body.

    I'd say that the reason you don't see many younger people at the F&G Commission meetings is that many of them are trying to support a family during tough economic times. In other words, it's difficult to remember that the objective is to drain a swamp when you're up to your rear in alligators. Especially with 12% unemployment in this state. IMHO, there're many more things on the immediate horizon to fix or there won't be a F&G commission.

    I've been around now for 70 years and haven't ever attended a F&G Commission meeting (not bragging) but have appeared at the legislature to testify as a lobbyist in tax matters, regularly correspond with legislators (federal/state) on water and economic matters and hope to continue to do so. I've seen many bright people of your age and younger there doing the same. Every non-profit in this state is well stocked with young, highly educated and motivated people fighting the good fight (whether conservative or liberal).

    When my own son was a teenager, I wondered what the H__l made him tick. He behaved a lot like I did when I was his age but I was a lot worse. To my surprise,.... he suddenly transformed into a bright young man with a good future and he did that in spite of my best efforts. He's now one of my closest friends and I respect his opinions.... I'll bet you probably were different as teenager than you are now....

    I guess what I'm trying to get across is don't sell young people short. They have long memories....
    "America is a country which produces citizens who will cross the ocean to fight for democracy but won't cross the street to vote."

    Author unknown

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