Recreational salmon fishing limited to single site, catch

[Mrs.Finsallaround]

VERY GOOD POINT DARIAN......;

I believe the term here is "prejudice".....



Predation of salmon/steelhead smolt by stripes is part of the natural cycle too, but...............

At least the striper bashing going on here is not in the striper forum, like the last one....

[Hairstacker]

Not trying to stir the pot but I'm curious about why predation by Steelhead on Salmon and Steelhead alevin/smolts while in rivers/streams never enters these discussions

I believe that is so because, as Jeff noted, this discussion boils down to native vs. non-native.

[Darian]

Robin, thanks for the thought.... Prior discussions have included more than a little bias against Stripers.

Actually, I was only hoping to find out if there is something (info) available to quantify the impact. Maybe I'm wrong and the impact is insignificant.... If the impact of Salmonid predation on each other is significant, we could do more to defend against spureous litigation and bad attempts at legislation.

[Covelo]

To Darian's point, I would like to see data examining the native rainbow component in the Sac River prior to Shasta Dam and whether the dam has shifted conditions in favor of non-anadromous life cycle. If so, it might explain why steelhead have done so poorly in the upper Sac since fry would have to compete directly with rainbows for food and would be eaten when small.

Yes it boils down to a native vs non-native issue. Likewise impacts from natives are not equivalent though they can be increased due to habitat modifications. Stripers and non-natives do not earn a place over time. They have an impact and have been having an impact since they were introduced. We may not understand that impact completely but it is real. Many species in the Bay/Delta and the rivers that feed them have been in decline for decades. Much of this has been due to dams and flows so it is difficult to tease out the individual impacts of other causes. You cannot just throw in several million high level predators and say they have no effect. That is biased.

And yes, go ahead and argue that striper eat salmon smolts and lots of them. I'm sure they do but when looking at a biological system that's what smolts are for and that's why so many are produced.... Spawning adult fish are much more "valuable" for future stocks and herein lies the hypocrisy of our argument(s) that striper have caused the decine of our beloved salmon and steelhead.

Glad someone has finally acknowledged that stripers eat lot of smolts. Spawning fish are not more valuable unless the system has under utilized spawning grounds and can carry more fry. Probably true right now with the current low returns, but not so otherwise. I never stated that the striper caused the decline, but they have contributed to it and will likely slow the recovery. Further, their impact is likely more severe for wild fish than for hatchery fish just like the squawfish was for native steelhead on the upper mainstem of the Eel River. The hatchery fish are released larger and when trucked down to the bay they avoid a long line of stripers and other non-native predators.

[mikel]

Please check out this post from today....

http://www.kiene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16247

-Mike

[David Lee]

Glad someone has finally acknowledged that stripers eat lot of smolts.

" ........... I know Striped Bass feed on Salmon/Steelhead Parr/Smolts , but so do Suckers (natives , BTW) , Squawfish (also native) , Sculpin , and a host of other critters ....... "

The above is from my second post in this thread . You would have to be out to lunch to think Stripers don't feed on ANYTHING that is available in large numbers .

I'm not going to be involved in this exchange anymore . Your personal bias continues to paint Striped Bass as the boogymen - I don't know why you don't like them to that extreme (and I don't much care why) but , as I said before ..... you are entitled to your opinion .

There are , as far as I know , NO documented runs of Salmon or Steelhead that have dissapeared because of Striped Bass predation . If you can name one , I'll happily eat crow .

David

[Darian]

Covelo,.... There's gotta be some info somewhere on this stuff.... I understand that Stripers have had an impact on Salmonid populations and that over time, habitat and water quality degradation magnify that impact but wouldn't the same circumstance apply in reverse where adult Salmonids are predators for juvenile Stripers and Shad (even Black Bass). Lets reduce the predation issue to it's lowest common denominator: with few exceptions, big fish eat little fish whether native or non-native.

I'm a bit confused here, tho. If, as has been pointed out, "Stripers and non-natives do not earn a place over time." How do we justify eradication (too strong a choice of words ) of Stripers and while not eradicating other non-native species that haven't been in California much longer than Stripers have (e.g. immigrant human population for one) Doesn't everything become a native species over time What about the impacts of adaption and natural selection The trouble with reducing things down to this native vs non-native specie argument is, where does it end

Non-native species continue to be imported into California by collectors and commercial dealers in animals, birds, fish and plants for sale on a daily basis. Plus they arrive through vehicles (e.g. recreational boats, rail, shipping and aircraft) that we have no control over. Natural vectors factor into this as well. Many of them end up being released into the environment. IMHO, it's far too expensive and too late in the game to even attempt to eradicate many non-native species. They're here whether we like them or not.

For me the solution is pragmatic. Why not try to protect what we have rather than wake up and find out all anadromous fish species are gone I'm still of the opinion that a high tide floats all boats.

[Jgoding]

[QUOTE=Covelo;60138]

Yes it boils down to a native vs non-native issue. Likewise impacts from natives are not equivalent though they can be increased due to habitat modifications. Stripers and non-natives do not earn a place over time.

I agree with you there.

I just think in your first post that perhaps you were implying AB1253 is the way to go in turning the tide in the decline of our salmon stocks when the much larger picture is of course the quality of habitat these fish have to utilize for reproduction and early stages of growth.

I don't know, I've just always been bothered with the mentality that you should bonk certain fish over the head whenever you catch one just because they're believed to be a trash fish, nuisance fish, or non-native. For especially invasive species that displace native species I do agree that culling is a good idea, but when looking at say stripers..... I don't see them as being an invasive species that wipe out ecological systems they inhabit and to promote they're decline is being pretty pretentious.

To the point of stripers being a cause of the decline of salmon.... I don't think this has been proven either way. Obviously they've co-existed for a fair amount of time and I just think if we helped improve the spawning habitat every so slightly (manage water flows appropriately during spawn etc...) we wouldn't even have to have this discussion.

[Dustin Revel]

just to put the isue in a little different light...
imagine stripers were not introduced into the delta 100 years ago and our salmon/steelhead population was at this pathetic low. would you introduce 6 million predators?

i think covelo is just saying what nobody wants to believe or has the balls to say. just because we love stripers and we love fishing for them doesn't mean we should let our emotions cloud the issue. We have introduced a species that is aiding in the diminishing returns of native species, and thst is totally factual.

[Mike R]

I was trying to stay out of this but can't. Stripers are just one cog in a very big wheel. There is no denying that stripers eat salmon smolt. Do stripers put a dent in the smolts? I'm inclined to think so but I also believe that stripers are much heavier predators on other fish, namely threadfin shad (which has also diappeared, btw).

So here's the rub. Striper populations are way down too. Populations of EVERY migratory species that swims throught the delta are down. This may be a significant clue as to what might be causing the demise of the salmon/steelhead, stripers, delta smelt, etc. If the striper population was way up and they were picking off the smolts as they came down the river, I think we could point a finger at them, but they aren't.

If you really want to talk about an invasive species putting a dent in fish populations, look up Potamocorbula amurensis or Corbicula fluminea. It'll blow your mind.

My head hurts from thinking about how/why the salmon population has crashed.

Mike