Single handers for swinging?

[Darian]

Mike,.... What does "set-up" mean

I've never actually timed my cast but it might be possible to take 20 seconds to roll a head up to the surface, make a single (overhead) back cast and shoot out the head.... I'm not familiar with all of the spey casts but I've watched guys spey casting at Watt Avenue and couldn't see where their procedure to cast took less time....

Also, seems to me that the number of "drifts per day" could only be determined by measuring the amount of time required to cast, drift, retrieve and begin again. If true, why wouldn't it take longer to complete a cast, drift and retrieve using spey techniques (due to the length of line cast/drifted/retrieved) than a single hander, overhead cast....

[Rick J]

The rod is rarely the limiting factor in how much pressure you can apply on a fish but rather your terminal tackle - ie tippet strength. I would think that one can normally apply pressure that would break the tippet. so not sure I buy the fact that one can fight a fish more effectively with a short rod though a short stiff rod can apply more lifting power so maybe in deeper water situations (I never use a spey rod when fishing salmon from my pram).

I agree it can be more difficult to land a fish with a long rod but under most conditions it can been done without too much problem. These issues go away with a switch rod that is close to or the same length as a single handed rod. It may be a bit longer to accommodate the back grip but this does not change the fulcrum length of the rod

Darian - regarding the set up discussion, a couple of points - if you are casting in still water situations (no current) then when you retrieve, I agree it is a simple procedure to roll cast and make one false cast with a shooting head. But if you are swinging and the fly is downstream, I would not expect you will normally roll cast up and make one false cast - you need to make a couple so that you are now aiming your cast across stream. Spey casts reposition the line with a single motion (or at most 2) thus setting up to fire a cast out very quickly.

Also, it is not just how many casts you make in a day but how long your fly is in the water. If you are casting further with a spey rod, it is very possible you will make fewer casts but still have your fly in the water longer than if you have to make 2 or 3 false casts between casting.

[Rick J]

Tom,
Using spey casts single handed will be more tiring over a full day of casting than if you are using two hands. The ability to use a fulcrum of the two hands will allow you to use a shorter easier more compact stroke that if you have to do the lift and subsequent motions with one hand. Using two hands, I can keep the cast very compact with the hands never leaving a small box window that would go from belt to shoulder and no wider than shoulder to shoulder. I could not keep such a compact casting stroke using one hand. Also it is more difficult to lift the line off the water with the shorter rod likely causing you to have to lift a bit higher to reduce line stick.

No question a single handed rod can be very effective - I used one for many years for steelhead but I have found it much easier on this "elderly body" once I went to 2-handed rods and switches over a full day of casting so I know it has to be easier and less tiring.

[590Mike]

Hey Darian
Yea, give it a try you really have to hustle. We worked off a Sage Z-axis 796 with a 250 gr. casting the first thrity feet and shooting about twenty add a few feet for the mend. by the time the drift is through and its time to strip in and overhead one or two false casts and shoot, the spey guy is already into the drift. I didn't think so at first but watching out of the corner of my eye I notice how many more and longer drifts he was getting. I'm sticking with my single-hander though.

[Rick J]

Carl,
I am not talking about tuna - the original post is about swinging for steelhead (I normally don't use 100# tippet for them!! I just can't get the tippet through the eye of the hook!) and it was a general statement and I followed it up with a statement about having more lifting power with a short stiff rod - but that doesn't normally come into play much with steelhead - I also would not use a 2 wt rod to fish for tuna. But if you point a rod right at a fish and pull, the rod becomes inmaterial so in that respect I could apply as much pressure to a 100 # tuna with a 2 wt as I could a 12 wt. Not to say I would point the rod right at the fish.

But I bet I could land a 20"+ rainbow on my 2 wt every bit as fast as you could with a 6 wt. as in this case it is likely tippet dependent. I also bet I could land a steelhead with my 2-hander every bit as fast as you could with a 9' rod. The fish may have more advantage with a long rod but if you fight it properly, you can land them very quickly!

[tom2cast]

Enjoyed reading the thread on spey.
I found the link to our 2006 Alaska Arolik River adventure, We had the privilege of fishing from 8:00am till 1:30am since it doesn’t get dark until 2, and we did this for 9 days straight unsupported, with of course a few breaks in-between and 6 hours of sleep each night. I would have to say, that’s fishing “all day” throwing #2 weighted articulated bunny leeches at the King Salmon and #4 weighed leeches at the trophy leopard bows. We also caught the grayling, dolly varden, char, and silver salmon…20+ fish days, everyday. We enjoyed the trip so much we went back in ’07 and booked it again this July for ’09. BTW: big stiff rods will turn the heads of the 30+ pound Kings in the river which is a must, along with a good drag system. Techniques I’ve used for the steelhead as well.
Either one of these should pull the link up.
Enjoy - Tom
http://photoshow.comcast.net/watch/G...fdf3783712273c
http://photoshow.comcast.net/watch/GN2QM8Mc

Tom,
Using spey casts single handed will be more tiring over a full day of casting than if you are using two hands. The ability to use a fulcrum of the two hands will allow you to use a shorter easier more compact stroke that if you have to do the lift and subsequent motions with one hand. Using two hands, I can keep the cast very compact with the hands never leaving a small box window that would go from belt to shoulder and no wider than shoulder to shoulder. I could not keep such a compact casting stroke using one hand. Also it is more difficult to lift the line off the water with the shorter rod likely causing you to have to lift a bit higher to reduce line stick.

No question a single handed rod can be very effective - I used one for many years for steelhead but I have found it much easier on this "elderly body" once I went to 2-handed rods and switches over a full day of casting so I know it has to be easier and less tiring.

[Rick J]

Carl,
Actually my words were "rarely" not a limiting factor. You are the one that took it to extremes by comparing a 2 wt to a 12 wt. One will obviously use the proper rod weight for the species being targeted and if you are using the proper rod, then it will normally not be the limiting factor in how much pressure you can apply.

I am all for anyone using whatever system they want. I am just stating that a switch/2-handed rod is often easier to use all day and for that matter often more effective when covering water swinging flies. Not to say it can't be done with a single hander. As I said previously, I used a single hander for years and still do on occasion but as I get older, I have found using spey techniques with the new line systems on switch and 2-handed rods has gone along way to allowing me to fish for extended periods and not wear myself out

[Rick J]

Carl,
Nope - don't play golf - I have enough vices without taking on another sport!! And yes I am up for betting but with qualifications. As I have said before my comments about the rod not being limiting needs be qualified to what is legitimate. Where I use my 2 wt is on spring creeks and I am normally using tippets of 7x to 5x. With this set up, I know I can land a 20" trout as fast as someone who is using a heavier rod.

I would not use a 2 wt rod for fishing trout on say the lower Sacramento. But I would submit that I could land a 20" trout on the Sacramento using a switch or even a light 2-hander every bit as quickly as someone using a 9' rod.

I assume not much is going on on the Russian right now? I live in Lake Co but work in SR and would like to get out on the Russian sometime - I may pack my 2-hander just to show that many of us spey guys really are idiots in lineups but would also bring my single hander with shooting heads!!

[Rick J]

Hi Carl - one more round. I never disagreed that with a shorter, stiffer rod you can apply more pressure. I did say that normally it is the terminal tackle and not the rod that governs how much pressure you can apply.

Let me turn the tables on you. We both go fishing for 20" trout. You use your12 wt with 7x tippet and I will use my 2 wt with 7x tippet. Who will land the fish first?

Maybe a more reasonable comparison is the guy using ultralight tackle and a noodle rod. Put the same terminal tackle on a short stiff 9 wt. Which rod is the more effective fish fighting tool? The noodle rod because the guy can better apply maximum pressure throughout the fight due to the shock absorbing characteristcs of the noodle rod.

Now back to fighting a steelhead on a 14' spey rod vs a 9' single handed rod. Say I have both equipped with 10# maxima tippet. A fish grabs and screams out into the river. At this point all bets are off - I am just trying to get my heart rate under control and feather my rim control as best I can. But say I am lucky enough to get him in close so I can now put pressure on him. I am fighting him off the butt of the rod with my hand clamped on my rim control and with either rod, I can apply pressure up to the breaking strength of the tippet and I am pretty sure I can land that fish as quickly on either rod.

If you put 30# on a boat rod and 30 # on a 14' spey - no question, you will land that fish much quicker on the boat rod. But assuming typical fly gear you might use for steelhead, the length of rod should not matter in how fast you can land the fish

[mr. 3 wt.]

It boils down to who's behind the wheel. I have seen newbies take 15 minutes to land a steely and a veteran 3 minutes. Virtually on the same tackle. Experience knowing the strength and how the fish react to being hooked, and the breaking point of the rod and tackle. It all plays into the final result. With that being said, the guys you see on the river not wasting time and the fishes energy to land a fish are experienced anglers. The guys who take forever have a lot to learn. But what a better way to learn than to have one on the hook to begin with.