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  1. #51

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    After reading through this thread, I am amazed at some of the posts. First, do Wild Steelhead only spawn with Wild or is there a mixing? Is there really an all natural Wild Steelhead run left on our rivers? Where did the first Steelhead used in the hatchery come from? I don't remember God creating a special Steelhead just to be used in hatcheries! So, are they not the same original genetic DNA?

    Second, my understanding of the hatchery approach is to promote survival in the fish in the early stages of development when they are most likely not to survive. Agreed that natural selection does not occur, but good cross breeding does, so wouldn't this help stabilize the whole hatchery group (for some of you that don't know what cross breeding is . . . that's why you don't marry your sister or cousin)? We use several techniques to help couples have children when they can't seem to reproduce on their own. Are these children inferior because we have used frozen embryos or artificial insemination, or god forbid the test tube babies?

    Finally, I don't know all the answers, but I do know fishing! And, the rivers in Oregon that have had the hatcheries closed on them are some the poorest Steelhead fishing rivers. These fish seem to need a little help due to all the logging, destruction of spawning beds, modern farming and cattle ranching practices, and encrochment from man. I like catching fish, so I release them, so I or another lucky angler can catch them again. If I want to eat a fish, I buy it at the store . . . it is cheaper and most of the time farm raised. Take a picture, you can still go . . . "Look at me, Look at me!!" And maybe, someone else or even me can catch it further upstream and have the same "Look at me" experience.

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chico, CA
    Posts
    418

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    No god certainly did not create a specific hatchery steelhead

    WE don't marry our sisters or cousins because of social restriction and fear of being ostracized. It happens ALL the time in nature, especially cousins. In some species it is nearly exclusive. In nature it is BEST if you don't inbreed because of the need for variability to alter genotypes that create more fit phenotypes for a species. This is all due to natural selection. It is also best to not inbreed because it can lead to over expression of recessive alleles. Recessive alleles can often lead to individuals who are not fit (will not survive to reproduce). This is an obvious disadvantage. An example of an over expression of recessive alleles would be trisomy 21 in humans, otherwise known as Down Syndrome. Obviously, any human can be fit to breed because society allows these type of people to survive. They simple WOULD NOT in nature, ever.

    Cross-breeding has nothing to do with it. A mule is a cross-breed of a horse and a donkey. A puggle is a cross-breed of a pug and a beagle.



  3. #53
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    granite bay
    Posts
    164

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    Finally, I don't know all the answers, but I do know fishing! And, the rivers in Oregon that have had the hatcheries closed on them are some the poorest Steelhead fishing rivers. These fish seem to need a little help due to all the logging, destruction of spawning beds, modern farming and cattle ranching practices, and encrochment from man. I like catching fish, so I release them, so I or another lucky angler can catch them again. If I want to eat a fish, I buy it at the store . . . it is cheaper and most of the time farm raised. Take a picture, you can still go . . . "Look at me, Look at me!!" And maybe, someone else or even me can catch it further upstream and have the same "Look at me" experience.[/quote]



    Best paragraph in this whole thread, without hatcheries here in California, we wouldn't be fishing much if at all. If and when these hatcheries close and the fishing goes down the tubes, your gonna wish that there was a bunch of fin clippers swimming around the river.

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    1,022

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    I think Covelo made a good point about how the fish are raised that leads to the major problem. Genetics aside, hatchery practices lead to fish more susceptible to predation as the conditions they are raised in lead to fish which have inferior survival instincts. Environmental factors play a huge role in behavior development.

    On other points of hatchery fish competing with wild fish, it could be argued that hatchery fish help wild populations as they are preyed upon easier by natural predators and thus less wild fish are predated due to the abundance of "dumb" hatchery fish..... But, hatchery fish will be competing for resources which may play a larger factor in the competition equation.

    Gentically speaking though, you would have to do a study and look at many years of data. Also, you would need a baseline to compare all the data too so having samples from the "native" strain would help. If samples from the original strain(s) introduced were kept you could also use this as a baseline to compare the genetics of the current hatchery stocks as well.

    Lastly, in theory, hybrids tend to be more vigorous than both adults due to increased genetic variability as even a "native" strain is susceptiple to inbreeding depression as natural genetic bottlenecks can occur very readily. That being said, a well managed hatchery system could actually help fish populations if it was managed correctly, but our current system pretty much does suck.

    In the end though, the decision to bonk a fish lies with the fisherman who caught said fish. Personally, I don't give a rats ass if it's clipped or not, that fish survived the trials of life and deserves a shot at passing on their genes in my opinion, but this desire is subject to change depending on how much the wife yells at me for not bringing home a fish.....
    "Did you catch anything".........."No, did you"........

    "Hey man, mind if I fish here?"....."Yes"...."Thanks man!"
    grgoding@yahoo.com

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chico, CA
    Posts
    418

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    The #1 issue with these fish is that they are kept safe during periods of time when wild fish are experiencing predation as high as 70%. Hatchery fish are reared into a type 1 life history curve in the sense that there is very low mortality rates. Wild fish, on the other hand, are reared into a natural environment that will lead to a type 3 life history curve, or very high infant/young mortality.

    Hatchery infants get to survive when 70% of them should have been prey. Once they are released they are not nearly as vulnerable as they had been as smolts. That's the genetic issue. Like you mentioned though, bottlenecks are the issue if hatchery fish are not allowed to breed with wilds.....

    Its a very interesting topic that simply does not have a "best" answer.

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Northern California, Redding
    Posts
    254

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    Alright, so I'm waaay late to the party here. But, I read EVERY post on this thread and I am pretty excited...a lot of good things said and great points discussed, on both sides of the fence.

    Anyway, I don't mean to start anything but I thought this hilarious...from Jaybird...
    "Wow. Thats too bad that such a wonderful fish has become an invasive species. Killing them would be hard for me to swallow...."

    This was on the other thread regarding killing browns on the Trinity. What? So hatchery steelhead taint the gene pool, but brown trout (on the Trinity) don't ravage the juvenile steelies and smolts and shouldn't be tagged?

    Anyway, Jay...I really believe your intention was to stir the pot and invoke a thought provoking thread, so good job.
    "Fishing should be a ceremony that reaffirms our place in the natural world and helps us resist further estrangement from our origins."
    Thomas McGuane

    www.reeladventuresguideservice.com

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Northern California, Redding
    Posts
    254

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    But seriously, here's my 2 cents...

    We just need to manage our rivers better and do follow through with markeeting their strengths.

    We need to identify two types of rivers.

    For example:

    (A) Group Rivers...Already has solid wild SH populations, no hatchery influence, bring in major funding efforts for stream restoration, habitat improvements, proper flow regimes etc. and have ZERO KILL regs...Pump these rivers for what they are...REAL STEELHEAD rivers for WILD BITCHIN fish...but you may get skunked, have to pay your dues and it will be real steelheading.

    (B) Group Rivers...Already too far gone (American?) Support the hatchery effort in a big way and just simply get tons of fish back in the river, do some habitat rebuilding efforts, have looser regs for the meat hunters and folks who want to eat a nice steely for the Holidays etc. etc. These rivers will build the sport and hopefully spurn more people to care about both rivers (A) and (B)

    Take the Trinity River situation: TONS of crowds, but TONS of fish...but TONS of hatchery fish...not wild fish. Do we lesson the impact of the hatchery and try to save the wild ones (which are not far removed form the hatchery ones.) Or do we just go full bore with the hatchery and write off the wild stocks...hoping that more anglers having success and getting a great intro to the sport will say, "This is Awesome! How can we make other rivers this good?" Down come the damns on the Klammath and boom...more participants = more advocates.
    "Fishing should be a ceremony that reaffirms our place in the natural world and helps us resist further estrangement from our origins."
    Thomas McGuane

    www.reeladventuresguideservice.com

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    granite bay
    Posts
    164

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    Great idea Mr. Neal. I'll buy into that. Some rivers, like the T, F and A are so far gone, just keep those hatcheries running at full bore just to appease the masses. Then start to manage the small coastals and any other wild steelhead streams with strict regs, DFG presence, stream restoration projects and more enviromentally friendly logging practice. Then maybe in the future we (state of california) will have something better than what is going on now. But in all fairness, put in your time, learn a river or two and the fishing really isn't that bad for some.

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