Tag out!

[jbird]

Basically, all I was asking you was, do you think that if everyone would accept catch and release, would we have hatchery steelhead?

Absolutely! Catch and release is a great thing and should be practiced (I believe) for all native species. But it is a microscopic drop in the bucket compared to all the other problems our native steelhead face. Lack of C&R has very little to do with the overall decline of anadromous fish.

Jay

[Digger]

So let's see how this works;

the more hatchery fish we take, the overall population declines so DFG puts MORE hatchery fish in the system?
Hmmm, I'm not understanding that philosophy.

Folks, it’s 2007, the Genie’s out of the bottle and the 'gene pool' is tainted.
I personally like to see wild fish left alone, and if you HAVE to take, take a man made one.

That being said, you paid for a license and have the privilege within the regs, to kill and keep whatever you wish.
Let your conscience be your guide.

[jbird]

the more hatchery fish we take, the overall population declines so DFG puts MORE hatchery fish in the system?
Hmmm, I'm not understanding that philosophy.

Digger, you are describing a lake habitat. In the anadromous environment, every year has a "new' population, based largly on oceanic impact. The fish we catch this year were bred 2-3 years ago. Its not like if we deplete the population by overfishing, theyre going to dump a new batch of adults in the river. If we take our limit of hatchery fish this year, it will have no effect whatsoever on how many are available next year.

Yes indeed, let your concience be your guide! Just a message to the folks relatively new to steelhead fishing... Gathering facts can sway your concience in a new direction.

Jay

[jhaquett]

My conclusion to this thread is if you like to eat fish, keep your hatchery steelhead. If you don't, release everything. I would be curious to hear a lecture about the genetics of hatchery vs. wilds.

Too hot of an issue...I don't enjoy the taste of fish so I'm going to continue C & R for all fish.

These threads are always very informative though

[bigtj]

jhaquett,

If you got a problem with my posts, then send me a PM and let's handle it offline. No need to clog bandwidth with dirty laundry, if you got a problem with me, I'll listen. I don't post here to impress new friends, or intentionally piss people off, I post here because of my passion for the sport, and I tell it like I see it.

Digger,

It doesn't work like that...additional hatchery harvest in no way means more fish need to be planted. Once the "escapement" of hatchery fish is taken (not that many - perhaps a few hundred fish), the rest of the hatchery fish in the system are essentially useless for the purposes of propogating additional hatchery fish. The are also essentially useless at propogating additional fish in the wild.... excess hatchery fish in the system interfere with the wild fish spawning. Studies have shown that hatchery fish are dramatically less successful thatn wild fish at spawning fish in the wild, and their genetics contribute to inferior fish. Reducing the number of hatchery fish in the system actually improves the odds for the wild fish spawning successfully (which are the only fish that have a decent shot at success with wild spawing) and helps maintain the genetic diversity of the fish in the system. Increased harvest of hatchery fish every year (along with habitati improvements) could theoretically actually lead to an eventual REDUCTION in the number of hatchery fish released, if it has a positive effect on the number of wild returning fish, thus reducing the need for hatchery supplement of the runs. This is why Jbrid (Jay) can't understand why more people don't kill more hatchery fish.

Bottom line, hatchery fish are put in the river for the espress intent of angler harverst. They do not put hatchery steelhead in the river to help the wild steelhead population or increase the success of wild steelhead. To do that, habitat improvement and all-wild fish policies are much more effective. Simply put, hatchery fish are intended for people to take home and put on the table and nobody should feel they are hurting the resource by harvesting them.

All of this being said, I prefer to fish for wild steelhead in rivers that do not have hatchery enchancement. I would be willing to reduce my catch by 50% or more and release all of my catch forever if it meant all the fish I caught were wild steelhead. They are such a vastly superior gamefish in so many ways I can't count them all.

Regards,

-John

[Adam Grace]

If you got a problem with my posts, then send me a PM and let's handle it offline. No need to clog bandwidth with dirty laundry, if you got a problem with me, I'll listen. I don't post here to impress new friends, or intentionally piss people off, I post here because of my passion for the sport, and I tell it like I see it.

.....

Regards,

-John

John, Thank You for your effort to keep more arguments on out in the public! If we all could concentrate more on keeping disagreements private or behind the scenes this board would remain as friendly as it has started out. I want to follow in your direction and limit my negative public postings.

[EricO]

I completely disagree that clipped hatchery steelhead and wild fish fight differently. I've been fishing the American for a number of years and there's no way you can tell the difference. If a hatchery fish and a wild fish have both been to the ocean, they'll both fight with just as much vigor.

I think Mike N stated it best:

"I don't think there are enough fish in the A to justify taking them, even if they are clipped. At least that is what my catch rates tell me."

And if the hatchery fish spawn, then the babies grow up with an adipose fin...therefore, if you catch a half pounder with an adipose fin, how do you know it isn't just a hatchery fish young'un?

Plus, the A isn't some blue ribbon fishery....I'm thankful for any type of steelhead run we get- the last few years haven't been that great, but this year has produced some pigs. But hey...if you wanna whack one, have at it. Maybe some of the fisheries in Oregon are a different story, but it's a little late to keep the American "pure" with wild fish.

EO

[OceanSunfish]

Wow!

All I know is that we are in an era where:

1) the current administration can at least say the "war" on the environment is going well.

2) Our "Guvinator" that has competely sold out the Fish and Game of this state.

3) Human population growth is predicted in the 10's of millions

4) Water diversion increasing regardless of endangered species.

5) DF&G actually celebrates the closure of fishing access, etc. (MLPA)

Yeah, we do have some fish building redds every year, but they are also downriver from dams controlled by DWR and BuRec who bounce flows up and down faster than an Smother's Brother's Yo-Yo.

I think it's nonsense to be spliting hairs over "hatchery fish" vs. "wild" fish especially with the trend of government affairs regarding our fisheries.

C'mon folks, be damn happy that after all that is recking havoc on our fisheries today, there is even something to fish for in the American or any other river in our state.

BTW, Coastside Fishing Club is proposing to DFG a plan that will allow them to release up to 720K salmon smolt from Pillar Point each year going forward. So, here you go; these folks just want to fish and catch salmon at sea. It makes no difference if these fish were born under a rock or in a tray. It's doubtful that many of the 720K will even make it back to their original hatchery too, but that's not important.

This is how desperate things are getting today. Arguing over the value of a hatchery fish vs. a wild fish with our abridged rivers is another example of the uppity and snooty fly fishing mentality that needs to vanish, IMO.

[WinterrunRon]

Jay and all,

I’m simply looking to understand your point, which I don't... not here to argue. Fact is, I’m not convinced one way or another. I release all my fish because I enjoy seeing them swim away. But I’m willing to be convinced that this practice is harmful and change my ways for the good of the steelhead population.

Excuse my not having read every word of every post, but I feel I did read enough to understand the points being made.

A couple of questions come to mind:

If the dam were built, and hatchery not built as a condition of them being built (talking only about what I know, the American River), would we have any steelhead at all?

Which leads to the next question, which is, if your answer is “unlikely” (mine is), isn’t it better to have an “altered” gene pool to cast to than no gene pool?

Which leads me to my next question, which is, if your answer is “yes”, (mine is), what point is there in killing any steelhead? Shouldn’t we allow as many to reproduce as possible, hatchery or not?

Which leads me to my next question, which is, if Mr. Hatchery fertilizes Mrs. Hatchery’s eggs and Jr. is reared to adulthood in the sea and subsequently returns having avoided the hatchery, is Jr. a hatchery or native?

If your answer is “hatchery”, how would we know? The adipose is intact, and this “hatchery” fish must be released (no natives allowed to be retained on the American). If your answer is “native”, how can that be, it was reared from hatchery stock?

So you see, I’m a bit on the fence about this whole release native-kill hatchery thing. But I respect everyone’s opinion and like I said, I’m willing to be convinced. So educate away!

PS. Gone Fishin'. Be back soon to see your responses. Heading to the American this evening to ponder the keeping/release of that nice fish I’m going to catch!

Ciao…

[mr. 3 wt.]

I let them all go, don't need to be a hero and show off a dead fish.