Nymphing for steelhead

[Flycanoe]

Nice discussion here guys. Didn't realize there were such strong opinions on this subject with respect to steelheading.

My view is that I've yet to catch a steelhead and will reserve judgement on which technique I want to use in the future after I catch one using each.

FWIW, my opinion is that I don't think there's any correlation between the way a fish is eating at any particular time and it's chances of survival. Fish feed in different ways at different times, some aggressively, some passively, some opportunistically, etc. Again, this has nothing to do with chances for survival, but more with the type of water they are in, the time of day, the type of food present, etc. I think there chances for survival is much more dependent on how quickly the fish is brought in and released. The less time fighting and using it's reserves the better for survival.

[bubzilla]

I never specifically called you an idiot, "Aaron". I do stand behind the statement that those who would argue that nymphing is unethical or otherwise imperils fisheries are in fact idiots, however. I never mentioned elitism at all, but that shoe does frequently fit on those who argue the alleged conservation ethic of traditional fishing only.

Rest assured, I understand your point of view. I have heard it for close to 20 years at this point. It was not founded in science the first time it was espoused on the North Umpqua in an effort to remove those who did not subscribe to the traditional-only mantra of the Steamboaters then any more than it is today. It is now, as it was then, a red herring intended to veil an intent to coercively enforce an aesthetic. That simple. Sure, at this point I am certain there are many who actually believe what they are saying to be true; however, sincerity and veracity are not the same thing. Lots of people genuinely believe in Santa Claus too, after all.

The argument is essentially this: only steelhead that are in good shape will move to a fly; swinging only targets fish that will move; therefore, swinging is more ethical because it only targets fish that are in good shape. Well, like most little syllogisms, it sounds good on the surface and gives the person making the argument warm fuzzies about their good deed. The problem, like with most simple little syllogisms, is that the logic is flawed.

The basic assumption in all of this is that fish that are on the bottom and will not move to a swung fly do so because they are stressed. People with lots of experience with steelhead know this to be false; however, a lot of fly anglers unfortunately do not have very much experience with steelhead. Steelhead hold on or very close to the bottom for a variety of reasons. They sulk there for many more reasons. They also sulk suspended from the bottom. They react, or don't react as the case may be, to swung flies for even more reasons--all of which generally have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether they are stressed. There are myriad of conditions under which steelhead are fished for throughout the world; yet, many of the traditional only crowd would argue the conservation ethic applied ubiquitously. That's a hard sell. After all, I doubt that the winter fish that I pursue each spring, which are invariably on the bottom, are there because they are "stressed".

The second fallacious assumption is that fish that are taking nymphs fished dead-drifted are not moving to take those flies. Once again, that is a statement that could only be made by someone with little or no experience with steelhead, or in the alternative an ulterior motive. Anyone who has caught a lot of steelhead, nymphing or otherwise, knows that they will frequently move great distances horizontally when they will not move very much at all vertically. Again, an assumption that this is somehow related to their being stressed would be dubious at best.

Lets assume for arguments sake, however, that there is merit to the syllogism. That is, swinging prevents adverse selection by fish that are stressed. The problem there is very straightforward: there is no scientific basis to assume that only non-stressed fish will move to swung flies any more than there is merit to the assumption that fish do not move to nymphs. Moreover, if there are stressed fish in the system, then the ethical thing to do is not angle at all. That's right, don't fish at all. It shouldn't be, "oh, I'll hurt fewer by being less successful."

I may have indirectly implied that you were an idiot, Aaron, but you implied that all of us are unethical. Worse yet, you impugned our character by suggesting that we are only about numbers when it comes to angling. The false analogy arguments that come from those attacking nymphing always seem to make it to the point of comparing nymphing to gill nets or even dynamite. The next step, although this discussion did not make it there yet, is the implication that nymphing requires less skill and therefore appeals to the inferior fly angler. Or, my personal favorite, that it's not "fly fishing" at all.

What people who say [expletive deleted] like that don't get is how they damage the relationship between what should be a fraternity of anglers. They similarly don't get how much that attitude drives new anglers away from the sport. Worse yet, they don't get how focusing on such trivial nonsense--that clearly has no merit whatsoever for really protecting fisheries and steelhead from actual dangers--expends the limited political capital of the fly angling community for very little in return.

People are all excited about getting a prohibition passed on harvesting wild steelhead on the NU. That saved what, 100-200 steelhead a year? If that. But it expended quite a bit of political capital. What a return on investment that amounts to, huh? Clueless. Anyone stop to think that maybe the area biologists didn't support the initiative because it had no biological basis? And, I can assure you it's not the biologists that are motivated by license and harvest card sales--that's the Game Commission's thing. The biologists I know truly love fish and game, and do all they can to fight the politics that damages our precious resources. But the Game Commission? That's a different ball of wax. You know, the same group that gave the fly anglers exactly what they wanted on their one little, tiny piece of water yet again. Now go ask them for something important like a prohibition on bait on the Upper Rogue during the summer run and see how far fly anglers get. Better yet, propose a prohibition on the retention of wild steelhead on places where it is really needed like the South Coast. See how much traction the "whinny feather huckers" get then. That's what happens when you lose focus on what's really important or when you cry wolf too much. And, claiming traditional fly fishing is all about conservation is precisely that: crying wolf. It was [expletive deleted] 15 years ago when it started as a way to get the likes of Dean Schubert and Dave Hickson off the NU, and it's a load now too.

P.S. how about a yawn emicon on the site so that I can just post that in the future when this topic comes up?

[dtp916]

I'm not getting how nymphin for steelies is any worse than nymphin for trout.........Aaron

Throwing an indicator rig on the American, Truckee, Trinity, Lower Sac - whatever water - is this unethical or does it has a certain criteria as far a water temps and fishing pressure or what?

Sure swinging will catch fish. Indicators will catch more fish, or on days when you you normally wouldn't get a bite swinging, you catch one or 2 using an indicator.

Sounds to me you're just preaching the old school, steelhead swinging purist/snob mentality on all of us.

While your busy enjoying nature and your surroundings, sitting on a log, I'll be out fishing and hopefully catching - most likely using an indicator and a nymph. Or maybe a bead pegged 6" above a streamer hook

I'm kidding

[Rick J]

I support Aaron's view on fishing over redds big time but the rest I do not buy. If nymphing harms fish then gear fishing, throwing lures certainly should be banned and I do not buy that. When I nymph, I generally prefer to do it sans indicator and just tumble bug- on the NU I would use the ugly bug in runs that were not conducive to the swing before they said no lead (PS you can now use lead after Oct for late fall fish and winter fish). When they banned lead, they have essentially cut off a fair amount of water that is not effective swing water that now places limits on available water to fish. So guess they are protecting fish in those runs.

[Rick J]

one last comment about the NU and the indicator guys. At least many of the folks up ther that used nymphs and indicators were pretty rude and I for one was happy to see most of them go! The NU is a beautiful stream full of tradition and the guys that fish it will fish a run through and move on and would not encroach on someone who was in a run.

Many of the nymphers would come in eithor on top of you or worse below you. They would camp on a run and force feed a visible fish - in this case Aaron could be right tha some of these fish were stressed and by force feeding them you finally got them to grab. I would not go so far as to say this is unethical but certainly it is a type of fishing I would not chose to do and largly becasue of this behavior, there was a push to ban nymphs and indicators on this magical river.

[jbird]

Aaron

I respect your desire to swing and am sorry for the personal attacks from me and others.

I think whats important is that we dont tell eachother how to fish. Someone mentioned how this kind of thing can negatively effect greenhorns in the sport. That is very true. I think what happens there is those guys just dont want any part of us and just go back to chucking roe. talk about a negative result! A good friend of mine once said "If thats the way fly fisherman think of there fellow flyfisherman, just imagine what the gear chuckers must think of us?"

Come on now, lets just enjoy the gift of fishing God has given us and play together Its unity that changes things.

Peace out

Jay

[bubzilla]

one last comment about the NU and the indicator guys. At least many of the folks up ther that used nymphs and indicators were pretty rude and I for one was happy to see most of them go! The NU is a beautiful stream full of tradition and the guys that fish it will fish a run through and move on and would not encroach on someone who was in a run.

Many of the nymphers would come in eithor on top of you or worse below you. They would camp on a run and force feed a visible fish - in this case Aaron could be right tha some of these fish were stressed and by force feeding them you finally got them to grab. I would not go so far as to say this is unethical but certainly it is a type of fishing I would not chose to do and largly becasue of this behavior, there was a push to ban nymphs and indicators on this magical river.

Rick,

I live less than 100 miles from Steamboat. I have in years passed fished the NU more in a single season, winter or summer, than most of the people reading this will in a lifetime. I have been cuttoff by guys swining more times than I could possibly count; raced to holes by big-name guides with their clients; watched guys sleep in their cars to get first light only to have someone pull up on them just before dawn and scramble down the bank to the water ahead of them laughing about their coup; and just generally encountered some of the least pleasant people I have ever had the misfortune of meeting along a river anywher. I have said it a lot, and unfortunately it's true: the NU is a river with more a*!holes per square mile than any other on Earth.

There might have been some rude indicator fishermen; in fact, I am sure there were. Most fished when nobody else was on the water, i.e. mid day, and few ever frequented the Camp Water or other more traditionally-oriented stretches. And, now that they have been regulated off the river, there certainly isn't a shortage of jerks as a result. Like I said in a previous post, that's the place to go to be a traditional-only fly anlger. It's a beautiful river, and I encourage anyone interested in swinging wets or dries to spend as much time there as they can. It's gorgeous. I just ask that they please not take the fireside science and unique culture of the place and try and export it to other less radically regulated fisheries.

[Rick J]

Budzilla,
No question there are some rude swing guys as well. And I truly believe the regulations placed on that river had little to do with sound biology and fish science.

I have on more than one occasion had someone "hole-hop" me but I generally don't hold that against someone - if they beat me to the run then they get it - but few swing guys will camp on a run like the indicator guys did and that is what bugged me the most about some of them. I am more than happy to go through a run after someone else and feel comfortable that I still have a chance at a fish but when a run holds a number of fish and a guy will just stay there and force feed them for hours and not move on that pretty well locks up a piece of water and I saw a number of them in the Camp Water doing just that such as at Station. Some of my best fishing was in the middle of the day in Camp Water tumble bugging the ugly bug but I did not camp on any run but would still fish through.

I feel lucky to have not had that many folks come in on me when I have been fishing a run in the almost 30 years I have been fishing that river. I still think the majority of peolpe respect at least that tradition. Nothing wrong in my view trying to be the first one on a piece of water and I will say I have done my share of early morning drives to a place I want to be first through

[jbird]

camp on a run like the indicator guys

I think this is a really important etiquet (sp) topic in itself. I think many nymph fishermen are guilty of hole hogging. Especially beginners. Even I will sometimes realize I havnt moved in 15 or 20 minutes cause I am maniacaly trying to get the right drift thu a distant, dificult bucket. Its wrong. I think nymph fishermen need to be educated on moving thru holes. When I am sharing water and am nymphing. I make a point to move through the hole quickly. 5-6 good drifts, then step down 30 feet. With this movement, you can move as quickly as the swing guys that are the 'cast, take 3 steps' guys. If you dont feel like you covered it well, get back in line at the top.

PLEASE MOVE THROUGH HOLES AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE! Even when you are alone cause it ingrains it into you.
You will also catch more fish

Jay

[Frank Pipgras]

After reading all these posts I will only swing for steelhead in the future while using a cane rod with a silk fly line and a gut leader. Anyone who is not fishing traditionally like me is clearly doing it wrong.