What to try when the reports say "Senko"

[Hairstacker]

Ah geez, don't tell me I inadvertently started a "what is fly fishing?" thread.

[JerryInLodi]

Jerry, pulled out the Jack Ellis book again and re-read the chapter he wrote on "bassin with a fly rod."...
Makes me think we have something different and unique with the Delta in the way we are able to target bass on top throughout the day during the warm season. In other words, I wonder if he would have become as discouraged if he had been fishing the Delta instead. . . .

Hairstacker, I think to be a complete bass fisherman, whether fly rod or conventional, you need a full bag of tricks. Now some of these ProBass guys definitely have that bag. As a fly rodder I have a LONG way to go to equal them.

Tonight, I and an unnamed board member who brought "dark side" materials, went out on the delta. The afternoon seemed perfect except for the fact that the evaporation from the high winds of the past two days, along with the rain, had dropped water temperatures by two degrees, down to 61.5.

Being true fly rodders, we started out with poppers and Dahlberg Divers, nothing for a half hour over known extremely productive water. Next, we tried subsurface things like giant woolly buggers, Puglisi bluegill imitations, smaller clousers, one SMALL LMB on a olive WB and one decent striper on the Puglisi. Finally we cracked open the bags with fresh rubber worms and jig hooks. After two hours, one medium and one small bass. Now truthfully, we gave it a pretty good shot but compared to a ProBasser, we were lightweights. He probably would have ended the day with a 25 pound bag.

I KNOW we can do better, we just need to learn more tricks.

[Hairstacker]

Hairstacker, I think to be a complete bass fisherman, whether fly rod or conventional, you need a full bag of tricks. Now some of these ProBass guys definitely have that bag. As a fly rodder I have a LONG way to go to equal them.

Jerry, that's an interesting perspective. . . . I suppose the bag of tricks could include flipping Senkos with a fly rod. But the thought of it makes one re-examine and think about the point of being out there with a fly rod in hand in the first place. Obviously, everyone will have to answer that for themselves. . . .

I expect a fly to be on the end of my connection in no small part due to the additional pleasure I glean from constructing such things at my vise in the first place. I still get a kick out of catching fish on flies I've tied!

[JerryInLodi]

Hairstacker, don't misunderstand me. I'm not advocating going over to the dark side. What I am saying is that the Pro Bassers have a multitude of techniques that catch fish. I want to learn what they are and WHY they catch fish and when do you use them. For example, what's the difference between a Carolina rig, a Texas rig and a Wacky worm. Right now I have no clue. Do each of them catch fish equally well? During the same circumstances? What makes a crank bait work? (What is a crank bait??) When do they use it and when do they use a spinner bait? When do they use different colors. I know that colors are important because I see color calculators in the the fishing catalogues.

I think there is a world of fishing with a fly rod that still needs to be developed, bass fishing. AND I think we can do it with FLIES, not rubber worms, spinner baits, crank baits, etc. but we need to understand the bass a lot more.

So far I've found that fishing a giant woollybugger as a dead sink can be done and the best presentation seems to be done with a type III, 15 foot sink tip. It and the fly seem to sink at almost the exact same rate and the short tip seems to prevent most line collapse.

I've also found that greasing the front of a woolly bugger and fishing it on a floating line will produce results similar to a spinner bait. In fact, better since, when greased, it floats at the beginning of the presentation and gets strikes while just laying there. Then it runs just under the surface when stripped, either fast or slow. I still need to know about colors, size and how much flashabou to make these more effective.

Is a clouser or a giant woolly bugger, allowed to sink 4-8 feet, stripped in rapidly a good imitation of a crank bait or is there something better? I haven't even started on this.

What is the best way to jig a fly across the bottom? Floating line, sink tip? Is a zonker strip with a set of dumbbell eyes the best fly to use? I've had this work some of the time but again, too many questions.

It all boils down to the fact that the effectiveness of the bassin' dudes give a guy lots to think about and a whole new world of fly fishing presentations, techniques and flies to play with.

[David Lee]

[quote="JerryInLodi"]

David, then what is a fly? How about the lifelike stoneflies made with plastic strips, and plastic wings? They are "tied" in a pattern rather than molded. It that what makes them a fly? A sheet of silicone? You must be refering to a Crease fly. It that a fly? What about the tube flies? What about the flies tied with deer hair and then coated with silicone?

Is a foam ant a fly but a rubber worm not? I just can't figure it out. Where are we at?

Need your help.

Jerry -

I think you might have missed my point , or OPINION , as it were ....

#1 - There's NOTHING WRONG w/ fishing WHATEVER you want to fish on the end of your flyline . Be it a Nymph , Deerhair Bug , or a live nightcrawler . I don't think that there's a special place in hell for people that use plastic worms on fly gear .... really .

#2 - My PERSONAL take on what makes a fly is ..... something you have TIED , not a gummy minnow or melted bead . As a tyer .... I've come up w/ a few 'things' that have raised eyebrows , but I still consider them to be flies . Anyone can fish whatever they want to on a flyrod .... I just prefer to fish what I consider to be a FLY - not a Senko ....or Flyrod Flatfish ..... or a live Grasshopper .

#3 - You don't 'need' ANY help from me , because you have a firm grip on things . Because you are a forward thinker (like myself) , you constantly are thinking of building a 'better mousetrap' - a better , more efficent way to sort out these wonderful situations involving fish of all kinds .

#4 - There is no darkside . The day I can't toss a magic worm (on spinning tackle , please ...) , or fish a chunk of Sardine for Catfish , is the day I've gone SNOB ..... and don't deserve to call myself a Sportsman . ALL kinds of tackle are viable ......

My first post on this subject WAS NOT intended to raise your anger . I have nothing but respect for you , and I enjoy watching the way you've looked into matching the presentation of plastics with flies on a flyrod . The true beauty of flyfishing is ..... YOU set the rules . No one else .

I just don't thing fishing a plastic worm on a flyrod is flyfishing . Just my opinion .

David

[JerryInLodi]

David, truely there was no anger at all. I'm sorry if it seemed so! Sometimes posting comes across totally wrong! Believe me, no anger, just intrigued by your post! (Oh and I had to add this as an edit, I'm really ENJOYING this stuff!)

I was really curious what you defined as a fly! Especially since you seemed to hint that Crease flies are not really flies. With all the new materials, foam, synthetics, etcetera, fly tying has moved a long way from humpies and PT nymphs. I think it's becoming really hard to define what a fly is!

My question about an ant pattern was serious. Is a strip of black foam tied to a hook by its middle with a small piece of hackle wound around it a fly?

I read where Jay is developing a "Senko" type fly with hair braid and silicone. Since he's tying it, I guess it's a fly?

I really do think there is a dark side and scented rubber worms are part of it but I think if we understand the presentations that these baits afford, we can come up with real "flies" that at least come close in effectiveness.

As I am typing, I'm watching a program on bass fishing and the use of crank baits. I just learned that a crank bait is SUPPOSED to bounce along the bottom, with its bill bouncing off stuff. I never knew that before! I thought if you did that you'd end up snagging all the time. Now, I know what I'm going to do with some of those big dumbbell eyes I have! Tie something with a lot of flash and color that I can strip in and bounce along the bottom, making lots of noise, stirring up all kinds of stuff, etc. Maybe the fly should strip in at an angle rather than tied at the forward end? What line to fish it on?

But, I guess to answer the $64,000 question, I do agree, a rubber worm is NOT a fly!

[David Lee]

In my book .....

A foam Ant IS a fly . A Crease fly IS a fly (you have to tye/build it , right ?) .

A gummy-minnow is ...... well , to ME , it isn't a fly - while the tying instructions call for it to be tyed-off at the eye of the hook w/ thread , it isn't really needed because the siliskin sticks to itself . Lots of folks use them to great effect ...... but I'd rather use something that I've tyed .

JM is on the right track - I think Llama coated w/ silicone would be the way to TYE a 'rubber worm' fly .

To each his own .... I honestly don't think what anyone uses matters in a life and death way .

David

[JerryInLodi]

To each his own .... I honestly don't think what anyone uses matters in a life and death way .

David

I agree but it's fun to try to figure out what's inside and outside the envelope. To me, neither foam ants or Crease flies are flies, they're lures. I just saw a gummy minnow the other day. I thought it was a manufactured molded plastic bait. You mean that thing was hand tied? Definitely NOT a fly.

Braided wig hair with silicone rubbed in? Well, in my book it's not a fly, just a hand made rubber worm. But would I fish it if it works? Do I fish foam ants. YOUBETCHA!

Can you imagine the consternation that occurred when the first guy tied a fly using something other than feathers and fur! Did he hide it in his fly box and fish it secretly? Was he an outcast to his friends when discovered? Was he kicked out of his fly fishing club? Did he lapse into depression, and finally go to confession, say his Hail Mary's and Our Fathers and never use it again?

It's said that the Delta will become the world's premier LMB fishery in the next few years. And it's only a half hour from my house. Wouldn't it be a kick to have the same full bag of tricks for bass as we do trout, not to catch fish but to catch LOTS of fish and LOTS of BIG FISH, CONSISTANTLY just like the bassin' guys do. To me that means we're really going to have to look at the edges of the envelope.

[Darian]

David,.... Say it ain't so!!!!.... "There is no darkside"

[Darian]

Jerry,.... I was out yesterday, mid-afternoon thru around 6:30 PM. Launched at Paradise Point and fished the sloughs. Not much tidal movement, water temps ranged from 62.0 to 66.0 degrees. Water clarity was around 4'. Light breeze and warm at start of trip. Cool, overcast with increased breeze at end. Most of our fish were caught before the overcast skies and temp drop.

The trip was a success in spite of starting out like a disaster waiting to happen. Forgot to put the plug in while launching but realized it and solved the problem before sinking the boat. Thank god for bilge pumps. Next, the trolling motor decided it was on vacation. :\ :\

Some good looking water around Kings Marina and in between. We hit all of the Bassy lookin' water in that area. Caught some dinks. All on gear (topwater or Senko's). One little guy took a 5" Senko as soon as it hit the water (it must've been waiting there with his mouth open ). It wasn't much bigger than the Senko. My fishin' partner caught all the fish. I drove the boat. All in all, it was a good trip. Lotsa birds/turtles and some wildlife to watch. Beautiful day.