CRIMES AGAINST THE AMERICAN RIVER!

[Digger]

I understand how frustrating it must be to see people arrogantly walking through the various redds or disturbing spawning steelhead. However, as long as there are hatcheries pumping millions of fish back into the system each year, it's moot.

Okay, let the debate begin.

This feels like a setup, but I'll go forward with it:
From the little amount of reading I've done, there seems to be a majority opinion among fisheries biologists advocating the detriment of hatchery vs. wild stocks, citing things as smaller overall and less agressive fish, less ability to adapt to natural survival and predation, etc.

see articles: http://marineresearch.oregonstate.ed...rdic%20JFR.pdf

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=105...2-D&size=LARGE

[Darian]

Digger,.... I feel the same way about that post. However, I'm not sure what the debate is.

If I understand the comment, correctly, the presence of hatchery fish creates a sense that wild fish are of less value and allows us to wade thru redds and snag fish without pangs of conscience....(OSF, please forgive me if I've misstated the intent of your post). I suppose for some that point of view might be validated by numbers rather than by quality of the fishery. After all, there's still nothing illegal about where fisherman wade or the introduction of hatchery fish. Apparently, the CA legislature and all those who supported AB 7 (re: gauranteed hatchery funding, passed last year) agrees with that position, as well.

I would prefer a quality fishery for the American River (whether hatchery based or natural spawned). IMHO, most Steelheaders on this BB want a completely natural spawn. A laudible goal but probably not realistic; given that we're located in a major population center and below a set of very large and complete blockages to historic spawning areas. Sooooo, it seems to me that lamenting the presence of hatchery fish is not likely to solve the problem of people wading thru redds.

That brings me to one of my questions in an earlier post.... What is the impact of Steelhead spawning activities in crowded conditions on Salmon and/or earlier Steelhead redds Do these later spawners cancel out earlier, natural spawners Haven't seen any comments on this yet.

[Covelo]

That brings me to one of my questions in an earlier post.... What is the impact of Steelhead spawning activities in crowded conditions on Salmon and/or earlier Steelhead redds Do these later spawners cancel out earlier, natural spawners

Judging by the fairly large number of salmon spawning in the lower American and the restricted number of river miles available for fry, the impact is probably negligable. The system is probably saturated with fry regardless of how many redds are disturbed by steelhead. I have never seen numbers on it, if they exist, but I would guess that greater than 90% of the salmon run is hatchery in origin.

I happen to think individuals that catch and kill stripers during their spawning activities in the spring are worse offenders with zero integrity, especially during this time of absolute zero enhancement programs for this struggling fishery. My $.02

I have never understood how enthusiastic (sometimes fanatical) steelhead fishermen can hold stripers so dear. Erraticating this non-native species is probably the greatest thing that could happen to bolster steelhead populations and the general health of the bay. From what I have observed, stripers are not struggling at all or not enough, depending on your POV.

[David Lee]

I have never understood how enthusiastic (sometimes fanatical) steelhead fishermen can hold stripers so dear. Erraticating this non-native species is probably the greatest thing that could happen to bolster steelhead populations and the general health of the bay. From what I have observed, stripers are not struggling at all or not enough, depending on your POV.

Uhhhh ......

Actually , the BEST thing we can do for Steelhead would be pulling out every dam in the state , then getting rid of ALL of the people here . That .... and not fishing for them at all .

Not too feasable , I guess . Just about everything in CA. is non-native .

Different strokes .

David

[Digger]

David for Governor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Darian]

Covelo,.... Thanks for the observation on Steelhead spawning over Salmon Redds. It does make sense that natural spawning doesn't produce the majority of fry in the river.

Not sure I agree with your observation about Stripers, tho. Altho, Stripers are non-native and predators, they don't compete for spawning areas with Salmonids. They do eat almost anything else with fins, crustaceans or amphibians but not insects or eggs (unless they're inside another fish).... So, while in fresh water, they're not competing for food. In the ocean, they each share the kill or be killed environment. IMHO, I don't think Stripers do as much damage as Squawfish below the Red Bluff Diversion Dam where Squawfish are known to eat Salmon/Steelhead fry migrating downstream. I just don't have the same feeling that Stripers are the gigantic threat that is attributed to them.

The problem with eliminating non-native species is that there're too many of 'em, they've been here a long time and are now established and many of them contribute to real economic value for businesses/residents in the areas where they exist. Just as Salmon/Steelhead are beautiful creatures and put up good fights when hooked, Stripers are beautiful creatures and put up good fights when hooked. All of 'em eat well. I see nothing bad in either species. They're all under stress from loss of habitat.

If we are to eliminate Stripers from the Delta, undoubtedly, Black Bass would take over their place the major predator of Salmon/Steelhead in the delta. If we remove Black Bass, why not bluegill, Crappie, Redear Sunfish, etc., also. None of this is realistic given the DFG budget and pressures from special interest groups (....of which, I'm one).

I'm no longer an "avid" Salmon/Steelhead fisherman in that I only fish for them when I'm not able to fish for Stripers or other salt/warm water species, so, I would be one of those who does not support eliminating Stripers. I'm for spending money to eliminate species like the Zebra Mussel, NZ Mud Snails, Mitten Crabs and many of the weed types currently choking the delta, tho.

Anyway,.... tight lines.

[Covelo]

Not sure I agree with your observation about Stripers, tho. Altho, Stripers are non-native and predators, they don't compete for spawning areas with Salmonids. They do eat almost anything else with fins, crustaceans or amphibians but not insects or eggs (unless they're inside another fish).... So, while in fresh water, they're not competing for food. In the ocean, they each share the kill or be killed environment. IMHO, I don't think Stripers do as much damage as Squawfish below the Red Bluff Diversion Dam where Squawfish are known to eat Salmon/Steelhead fry migrating downstream. I just don't have the same feeling that Stripers are the gigantic threat that is attributed to them.

Many stripers are year round residents of the rivers and bay. The man who taught my Dad how to steelhead fish on the Eel River used to fish the bay at Benicia once he got too old to travel much. They use to go down there on Wednesdays when the DFG truck would pull up and start dumping smolts. They fished with fake trout lures and caught hundreds of big stripers each year. The stripers would move next to the bank and start gorging themselves on the smolts. I have heard from others also who have cut open stripers and found fry in their guts. I have to disagree with you in that stripers are huge predators of salmonids.

The problem with eliminating non-native species is that there're too many of 'em, they've been here a long time and are now established and many of them contribute to real economic value for businesses/residents in the areas where they exist. Just as Salmon/Steelhead are beautiful creatures and put up good fights when hooked, Stripers are beautiful creatures and put up good fights when hooked. All of 'em eat well. I see nothing bad in either species. They're all under stress from loss of habitat.

I did not mean to imply that we should try to eliminate them, just that we should not be coveting them. The posters comments about despising fishermen that take spawning stripers was a perfect example. The DFG protects all those non-native species you listed by imposing bag limits on them. Why, so people can have a few easy to catch fish at the expense of other native species. That makes no sense to me. I agree that they are beautiful creatures, but only when I can travel to the east coast and catch them where they naturally occur. How does a non-native species lose habitat when it had none naturally to begin with here?

None of this is realistic given the DFG budget and pressures from special interest groups (....of which, I'm one).

You are correct, unfortunately. Still I hope you and others will see the hypocrisy of taking that position then complaining about the declining steelhead populations while attributing that decline, at least in part, to activities that IMO have much less impact on the runs.

[OceanSunfish]

If I understand the comment, correctly, the presence of hatchery fish creates a sense that wild fish are of less value and allows us to wade thru redds and snag fish without pangs of conscience....(OSF, please forgive me if I've misstated the intent of your post). I suppose for some that point of view might be validated by numbers rather than by quality of the fishery.

No forgivenss necessary. Sometimes it's hard to put things in writing and I don't always have the time or proper mindset to make myself clear.

First and foremost, I do not condone the disturbance of spawning fish, period. That includes stomping on redds and other 'nursuries' created by game/sport fish. Nothing makes it right, but my thoughts stated below make it tolerable.

My comments were driven by the "numbers" (vs "quality") in conjunction with my adjusted perception of the river.(see below) I do prefer "quality" myself, but I am also a realist.

I mean no disrespect to the American River, but I see the river for what it is or has become, which is a river severely shortened in length by a dam or series of dams. The steelhead and salmon fishery, in my view, became artificial when the dams blocked fish migration to their native spawning grounds.

I guess you can say my expectations of what I experience on that river are adjusted so that I just enjoy myself and not let my day get ruined no matter what I see or hear.

If I want to insure a fishing experience that is "quality", I'm resigned to the fact that I have to travel afar and typically outside of CA, far from the insanity of this State's fisheries management, or lack thereof.

[Darian]

As usual, Covelo's and other's comments are thought provoking and I certainly do enjoy these discussions.

I find myself agreeing with much of what is said, in terms indigenous species vs non-native, philosophically. However, I'm a believer in adaption and survival as they apply to non-native species.

On that basis, I'm accepting of certain non-native species (e.g. Stripers, Shad, Black Bass, Sunnies, etc.) and the contribution they make to enjoyment of fishing and local economies. Nor do I devalue indigenous species.... I jusr don't fish for them as much and don't attribute any more difficulty to catching one over another. By that I mean that I don't believe that Steelhead or Salmon are much more difficult to catch than a Striper. After all,neither has a brain much larger than the size of a pea.

There is no doubt about Stripers (....and black bass for that matter) preying on Smolts stocked where Bass live. These smolts are hatchery fish and are an easy target as they have not been exposed to large predators prior to stocking. Nor is it likely they have the instincts of a wild born fish. Altho I have no proof of it, I'd venture to say that were Salmon/Steelhead in the area where hatchery fish were being stocked, they'd feed on them, too. To me, this is just an example of natural adaption and survival.

Once a non-native species is established, as Stripers are, they inhabit an acceptable habitat for their survival. That was what I was referring to when I mentioned the loss of habitat. IMHO, it's too late to say that a non-native species cannot experience loss of habitat as it never had one, here. Clearly, Stripers are established and have occupied their niche here for a lengthy period of time.

[Covelo]

The timing was perfect on this one. Here is the fishing report for the Feather River from http://www.shastacascade.org/fishreport.htm

Big striped bass were attacking baby steelhead released from the hatchery as well as jigs, swimbaits, reaction baits which imitated them. Lure fishing was best around Yuba City while bait worked better downstream near the mouth. Steelhead fishing was pretty good in the Low Flow Section, with darker adults and bright steelies of around 3 pounds being caught on nymphs by fly fishermen, and nightcrawlers, with and without beads, by bait drifters.