Elwha river after 6 years of no dams - exciting video

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill Kiene semi-retired

Yes, tcorfey, we should be happy about all that.



I guess when you have a hatchery where the fish can go past it to spawn naturally upstream, like Redwood creek, it is better than a dam that stops all fish.


Redwood creek, the Mad river, the Russian river and I imagine some others let the fish go past the hatchery to spawn naturally too.

___________________________________

They are finally removing small, defunct, and unused dams all over the World now and doing lots of stream bed restoration as well.

---

There's a hatchery on Redwood Creek?

The county operated hatchery on Redwood Creek was actually on Prairie Creek and closed about 30 years ago. The costs for the hatchery were very high especially the power cost of pumping water. It produced lots of coho and steelhead but very few chinook. Coho Salmon have been closed to fishing in CA for over 20 years. The steelhead fishery benefit was limited to the lower few miles of Redwood Creek. There were plenty of unanswered questions about broodstock origin, genetics, disease and associated potential impacts but it was closed for budgetary reasons. The county couldn't afford it.

According to Bill Bakke, "You can have wild steelhead in a watershed or you can have hatchery steelhead in a watershed. You cannot have strong populations of both in the same watershed. Choices must be made."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tcorfey

We should note that the hatchery is near the mouth of the river and originally installed in the 70's it is a tribal hatchery. In 2010-2011 the old hatchery was replaced with a new larger hatchery well before the dams came down. It still continues to operate but some fish have chosen to spawn in the river naturally.

Although very few salmon have spawned in the upper reaches above the second dam site. They hope as more natural spawners come into the middle river then competition for the best spawning spaces will move the fish further up the river. Interesting to me was that the native Rainbow and Bull trout populations has grown substantially since the dams came down. It is also good to hear the summer steelhead thought to be extinct are also making a resurgence. Bull trout have doubled their population and resident Rainbows have gone from 3,218 in 2008 to 24,896 in 2019.

---

The Bull Trout on the McCloud river died out because of the dam. I mean basic level of knowledge would tell us why. So with that said rainbows and bulls will make a come back the minute a food source comes bag.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cutthroat22

The county operated hatchery on Redwood Creek was actually on Prairie Creek and closed about 30 years ago. The costs for the hatchery were very high especially the power cost of pumping water. It produced lots of coho and steelhead but very few chinook. Coho Salmon have been closed to fishing in CA for over 20 years. The steelhead fishery benefit was limited to the lower few miles of Redwood Creek. There were plenty of unanswered questions about broodstock origin, genetics, disease and associated potential impacts but it was closed for budgetary reasons. The county couldn't afford it.

According to Bill Bakke, "You can have wild steelhead in a watershed or you can have hatchery steelhead in a watershed. You cannot have strong populations of both in the same watershed. Choices must be made."

---

Thanks cutthroat22,

Great information

I pray for a few completely wild rivers.


In the past 50 years, they dammed up almost every small, short coastal river for development or AG/wine/dope?

________________________________________

Our un-dammed Smith river has California's largest size winter-run Steelhead and largest size Fall King salmon.

And it has or had a King salmon hatchery on it?

It is also one of our cleanest clear rivers with no AG on it.

According to locals, it has a small run of smaller Fall Steelhead.

Some say that it is so clear that it is hard on fly fishers.

Local anglers push back on any serious protective regulations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by winxp_man

The Bull Trout on the McCloud river died out because of the dam. I mean basic level of knowledge would tell us why. So with that said rainbows and bulls will make a come back the minute a food source comes bag.

---

It will be interesting over time to see how any resident bows and bulls decide to head to the salt…..
SF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by winxp_man

The Bull Trout on the McCloud river died out because of the dam. I mean basic level of knowledge would tell us why. So with that said rainbows and bulls will make a come back the minute a food source comes bag.

---

Which dam? Shasta or McCloud? Shasta dam cut off the food source for bull trout (salmon eggs, fry and carcasses). McCloud dam bifurcated their habitat by separating spawning areas and cold water sources (Big Springs a constant 44 degrees in midsummer) from the lower river holding and feeding areas. It also includes diversion of a large percentage of the flow thus decreasing habitat and increasing temperatures in the lower McCloud. Additionally, we introduced a competitor (brown trout). We cutoff their spawning area, decreased their habitat, eliminated their food source, increased water temperatures and introduced a competitor. It is no wonder that bull trout are gone from the McCloud. We could not have been more efficient if we had intentionally tried to extirpate them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cutthroat22

Which dam? Shasta or McCloud? Shasta dam cut off the food source for bull trout (salmon eggs, fry and carcasses). McCloud dam bifurcated their habitat by separating spawning areas and cold water sources (Big Springs a constant 44 degrees in midsummer) from the lower river holding and feeding areas. It also includes diversion of a large percentage of the flow thus decreasing habitat and increasing temperatures in the lower McCloud. Additionally, we introduced a competitor (brown trout). We cutoff their spawning area, decreased their habitat, eliminated their food source, increased water temperatures and introduced a competitor. It is no wonder that bull trout are gone from the McCloud. We could not have been more efficient if we had intentionally tried to extirpate them.

---

Have they ever tried re-introducing bulls to your knowledge in the upper watershed or is the habitat too degraded to do so?
Based on my experience, bulls will eat a lot of different things given the opportunity. Obviously losing salmon and the food sources they provide is big. With the different life histories bulls have, it would be interesting to see if re-introduction would work if attempted.
SF

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stonefish

Have they ever tried re-introducing bulls to your knowledge in the upper watershed or is the habitat too degraded to do so?
Based on my experience, bulls will eat a lot of different things given the opportunity. Obviously losing salmon and the food sources they provide is big. With the different life histories bulls have, it would be interesting to see if re-introduction would work if attempted.
SF

---

Bull Trout were introduced into Star City Creek in 1990 from some Upper Klamath strain fish and were never seen again. If it could even possibly work you would need a Lacustrine population and that would probably fail as well because of the lack of biomass. The McCloud Bull Trout were a completely isolated unique population from all others in the PNW with a specific life history pattern. They need a ton of Salmon fry/smolts to keep a population. It was amazing they lasted 20 more years after construction of Shasta Dam but McCloud dam for sure sealed their doom. Such a shame

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ned Morris

Bull Trout were introduced into Star City Creek in 1990 from some Upper Klamath strain fish and were never seen again. If it could even possibly work you would need a Lacustrine population and that would probably fail as well because of the lack of biomass. The McCloud Bull Trout were a completely isolated unique population from all others in the PNW with a specific life history pattern. They need a ton of Salmon fry/smolts to keep a population. It was amazing they lasted 20 more years after construction of Shasta Dam but McCloud dam for sure sealed their doom. Such a shame

---

Good info and I appreciate the reply.
I was thinking more that maybe fish with a resident life history may be successfully re-introduced in the upper watershed, since they spend most of their lives in smaller creeks etc and are generally smaller in size.
I’d also imagine finding bull trout with a resident life history in California would be highly problematic if not impossible.
They would be available from elsewhere though, but introducing out of basin stocks can be a slippery slope as well.
I don't know the systems all that well other then driving around and through the area on past camping and travel trips.
SF

I’m sure if bull trout were introduced into Mcloud Reservoir there could be a sustaining population.