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So for a while whenever I would hear of guys targeting diaper stripers it would just make me furious, but this morning on the way to work I had to ask myself...is really any different than fishing for half pounders? I guess not. As long as your useing small flies that arent stickin them in the eye or brain, then whats the harm. Darian, David lee, Mark what your thoughts?
I am a bit perplexed and confused with your statement "targeting diaper stripers". I don't understand how you can target little stripers to the exclusion of bigger stripers and vice versa. Yeah, some spots may hold a majority of one size fish over another at any given time, but the beauty of the Delta to me is that you never know if your next cast is gonna result in an 18 incher or an 18 pounder. Sure there are some spots that regularly produce only little fish, and some that regularly produce big fish, but day in and out, most spots can produce both size fish on any given day. A few weeks ago in the Delta, I caught four small stripers in a row from one spot, and the very next cast resulted in a 10 pounder. So was I targeting "diaper stripers" or bigger fish????
I have never read a post where someone said they were targeting juvenile stripers. Are you referring to posts where people report all they caught were small fish? I don't much care what other people are doing as long as its within the law and agree totally with Bob Laskodi on this one.
Good timing you have , Charlie .... I'm in the middle of Baja tyin' (#2 Olive/White Jiggys) and can sure use a break to chatter !
I LOVE beating-up Diapers - as long as the flyhook isn't huge (a 3/0 hook WILL brain those lil' devils ....) I don't have an issue with it . I haven't seen too many that looked wasted upon releasing them , so I figure I'm not hurting them much . I fish circle hooks quite a bit , and have had only two gill hookings/zero eye punctures (both gill 'hookings were the hook bend AROUND a gillraker , no penetration) while using them .
Targeting Smolts on purpose ? Nope , I don't like to see it , and I'll tell you why ....
Trout are tender fish , Stripes are not tender . In the past , I have had a large ratio of Smolts/Stream Trout-sized Steelhead that did not look so good on the release .... so I'd rather leave them alone instead of taking the chance of killing them while playing . CFF mag ran a bit a few months back on specificly targeting Smolts on the American (they ARE Smolts , not native resident holdovers) , I didn't think it was a real good idea (still don't) .
Fishing , even C&R fishing , is a blood sport - the only way to ensure you don't kill anything is to NOT fish for them . I feel Striped Bass are hearty enough to take it , shrimpy Trout are not .
Just my opinion .....
David
From a gear guy perspective... well gee I dunno 'bout the ins and outs of flies in mouths...
On rare occasions when I use live bait, I never use a trailer hook.
For the remaining 99% of the time, I use plugs the majority of which are 6-9" long. These have relatively big (1-2/0) treble hooks but I can honestly say I've only had a couple out of thousands of fish swallow a plug or a hook to the point of no return and I can count on one hand the 'diaper stripers' I've caught in our river.
That would likely change if I fished the delta and/or the Sac with any regularity but I don't.
Two days ago I found the skeletal remains of a merganser (fish eating duck for those not familiar) with a 4 ft. leader of what had to be no less than 60" monofilament... draped along ts sternum and emanating from within its tracheal rings... not good!,
Even if you don't like/appreciate the fish eaters... it is a sad reminder of how certain methods of fishing can cause co-lateral damage/death.
When I catch a smolt and it swallows my number 6 8 10 or 12 hook, I don't screw around with hemostats but rather cut it at as close to the hook as possible, get the fish back in the water and retie...
In all aspects of life... It is of great and noble virtue to never judge another. I unfortunately, am not that great and noble, lol... but I DO look closer at a person's intentions rather than his or her actions and that seems to work for me.
FISH ON!
M
Bob, Dabalone, to explain further, for the past month the Delta has been filled with fish in the 10" to 14" range and people were talking of using 5 or 6wts for them. Prior to that it was on the Napa River. Correct me if Im wrong, but in some of Tony B's(no disrespect intended Tony) recent post he was talking of doing just that.
David, I wasnt really refering to smolts but rather half pounders(12 to 16 inch fish) and comparing them to stripes in the same size range.
Charlie,.... It's good that someone among us thinks about this stuff. :nod:
For me, part of the problem here is that these terms do not hold the same meaning for all of us. For example, a classic definition of a half pounder was anything from 1 up to 3 pounds plus. Now it seems to apply to anything under 3 pounds. Where does the Smolt fit in :question: I'm not sure where the Diaper Striper size limits are.... :confused:
To try to answer the original question, if a species existence is being threatened by targeting/fishing for young among them, then I would see that as a negative. :nod:
At any rate, I don't know anyone who deliberately targets baby Stripers. Like Bob says, they may catch a bunch but are really looking for bigger prey. If catching a bunch of diaper Stripers was causing personal conflict in that process, it seems their only option would be to quit fishing. That doesn't seem practical. :-k
As to Half Pounders, I would and do target Trout from 13" and up. I don't find anything interesting about catching Trout of any sort under 12" in length. Altho, many others do. Part of my lack of interest comes from not wanting to hike in to small waters where it's likely that smaller Trout will be available. So,.... I can make a choice to fish waters that hold the size Trout I like. To me, smolts are baby Trout and hold little or no interest for me. I'd rather target Sunnies, Black and Striped Bass. :D :D :D
Darian the reason I was conflicted with the situation is the rapid decline in stripers and the need to help them. And I know some will say if I feel that strongly about it then dont fish for stripes at all, but Im an addict and I need my fix(joking).
Maybe I think too much, or maybe I think outloud too much.
Thanks for everyones input.
Well Charlie, with all due respect to the guide you mentioned, I was fishing the specific location the guide mentioned in his post (they probably even saw me!), and we caught the two biggest fish of the day from that very spot!!! As I said, sometimes you smack little fish and sometimes you don't! After carefully reading the post, the guides definition of diaper striper appears to be different than mine, in that mine is any sub-legal fish (< 18") is a diaper striper!!! If I get in a "honey hole" that doesn't have any bigger fish in it, I usually move on after a few minutes. If I'm getting some bigger fish mixed in with the diaper stripers I usually stay until I believe I've nailed all the bigger fish out of the hole. That's my way, and I'm not saying that my way is the right way, it's just my way!
As far as decline in striper populations, fishing pressure has little to do with it, it's all about habitat loss, especially huge water diversions down south.
Sorry , everyone .... I should have been more clear -Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Gonzales
A Smolt/stream Trout-sized Steelhead is a sub-16 inch fish in my book , diaper Stripes are sub-16 inch , as well . For me , Half-pounders start @ 16 inches and run to 24 inches . Schoolie Stripes are 18-inches to 5 Lbs. . Hope this clears up my position .
D.~
I agree with these definitions...Quote:
Originally Posted by David Lee
As a "striper snob", I'm looking for 3lbs+, and use Size 1/0 - 3/0 hooks. I'll be damned if those little "diapers" bite those huge things anyway!](*,)
I definitely don't "target" them, per se, but "hooking" them is an occupational hazard, unfortunately.
And, I don't think ANYONE should be "targeting" them with smaller rods, no matter what species they are (stripes or steelies) Let them grow up, for cryin' out loud! :roll:
What got me thinking about this came about last year when I took Sturmer White out and he was telling me about how much fun he and several of his friends were having in the delta using their 6 weights. When we were fishing upriver this spring he brought along his favorite 6 weight and let me cast it. Believe me, it was a rocket of a rod. I'm sure this "light" rod would be more fun on smaller fish whatever they may be but at the same time could handle something more sizeable.
I like using larger rods and flies for the chance of hooking and fighting a larger fish and getting it in as quickly as possible. But, when you know that an area is full of smaller fish it's more appropriate to use a smaller rod and enjoy the experience. After all, isn't that what fly fishing as a sport is all about? Using a light limber rod to catch and play fish? If it was simply a matter of catching fish to eat it wouldn't be called a sport.
TONY
I'm with you Tony. If you're gonna get some smaller fish, why not use a lighter rod? Put the wood to 'em and have fun. You can always bring a heavier rod, too.
I've seen too many people to count take longer to land a fish on an 8wt than others could with a 5wt only because they didn't know how to fight fish.
Mike
I don't see any reason to specifically target juvenile fish like that. I think what Charlie is saying is seeing charter/guide boats reporting 60 fish days but most of the fish (90%) were 16" or smaller.
Also, I like fishing for the challenge. When it's easy it's not as fun. I don't see the point of catching a bunch of dinks for the sake of catching fish. They don't handle as well as legal fish and their mouths get torn up pretty easy.
Totally agree with JG above. Besides, I only ever target small stripers when there's good odds of him being eaten before I get 'em to the boat by what I'm really after! :nod:
In all seriousness, I don't target little fish of any species becasue... well, they're juvenile fish.
And I can't agree with the "they won't eat it anyway" argument. That's not my experience. My experience (stripers and salmon smolts mainly) is they will attack things they can't even fit in their mouths to swallow and are longer than their body. I use bigger hooks to minimize the odds of hooking them, but you can feel them hit mulitple times on the retrieve.
And I have a different definition of a diaper striper. There are dinks or shakers (undersized stripers sub-legal in size) and then there are diaper stripers, fish say 6"-10" that hit your 4"-8" fly!
Usually, I find these fish to be in large schools (thousands, now probably hundereds), all of similar size. If I catch one, I move one. They don't travel by themselves and I don't ever remember catching a large fish when these are around (needs are too different).
I think what is being said is that going to the delta or any other water with a 4 - 6 weight looking for stripers is not a good idea. What are you going to do when a 5 pound or even bigger striper comes along and hits your fly. Now you have to fight a fish on a rod that is not meant for it. Will the fish live from that fight, I do not know and nor does anyone else, but why put the option out there that it might not survive a longer fight. Going to the delta with small fish equipment is the issue I believe. Fly size has nothing to do with it also, big and small fish eat both big and small flies, but going out and using a trout rod is I believe what Charlie is refering to.
If I am wrong, oh well, but that is what I am reading.
Stripers, bass, trout, steelhead all come in small to large sizes from the same water, so leave the light gear home no matter where you are fishing because you just might hook a big un? I think too much gets read into these things, if you are concerned about hurting dinks use barbless hooks and fish on. Of the countless juvenile stripers I have caught in the Delta thru the years a tiny fraction were of questionable health upon release. Using barbless is best assurance of least damage if the thought really bothers you.
I thought this lecturing stuff was exclusive to the Steelhead Forum. How many ways and times can the same thing be said and people be skewered for their unintentional statements :?: Frankly, it's getting tiresome.... :\\
Thank you Darian.
Gotta disagree, I see people weighing in with their thoughts on a subject, no repetitiveness just different people expressing their views some agree with each other some don't, no big deal. And where is the skewering?Quote:
Originally Posted by Darian
Dabalone,.... you and are I are not going to agree on this but, whether you agree or not, the obvious target of all of this is anyone who posts a report about catching "....diaper Stripers...."; intentional or not. Oh, BTW, it's not a coincidence that the subject was raised immediately after a BB regular who fishes Stripers posted that his party had caught a bunch of small Stripers (or maybe you don't choose to note the timing of those types of posts.... :-s ) You are right about people expressing their opinions but, as I said, it looks a lot like repeated lecturing to me. :-|
Must be winter.... :roll:
Ok guys... Charlie ASKED for thoughts, albeit specifically Darian, David and Mark's, but he DID ask for responses.... :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Gonzales
Hey Darian, its ok to respectfully disagree and I never mean anything nor take any of this personally, not everyone will have the same perspective on whats being discussed so disagreeing is just a part of any forum. I realize some threads are spun off from others and I may miss the intent but its probably because I look at each threads question or discussion separately without much thought of why it started.
Lots of very knowledgeable and articulate posters in these forums you being one of them, its a good place to come. Hopefully people can navigate the sometimes misplaced or missing punctuations and extended or shortened sentences in my posts and figure out what I was saying.