Itty bitty flies, useful?

[Gregg]

This topic could be posted in both the Fly Tying and Entomology threads, but I figured it may get a wider variety of responses here... Anyhow, I was wondering what the truly useful size ranges on common flies are. I've been tying flies smaller and smaller lately (while my eyes are still good :) ). I am specifically wondering about nymphs, ie: copper johns, bwo, pt's etc... I've been tying them down to sz 20, and thinking about dropping to a 22, while still keeping the same styling for each bug, just scaled down. Do most of these flies realistically come off in anything below an 18? I know BWO's can, but what about others? Bird's nests? Poopahs? Etc...

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Good subject Gregg.

I will try to get some real Spring Creek people like Don Rotsma, Rick Jorgensen, Terry Thomas and Jeff Putnam to address this too.

Being 61 years old now I like to stop at a #18 size fly on 6x tippet but there are time when that just isn't enough.

On a Trico spinner fall or some of those tiny BWO emergences you might need to go smaller and finer.

I do like to have the smaller flies tied on short shank hooks that are one size over or two so I can have a physically small size 20 insect on a #18 hook gap.

When someone comes into the shop and buys about 4 dozen flies that are all #18 and smaller it always gets my attention. I usually try to strike up a conversation to see what they are up to and where they are going.

With more and more anglers fishing these popular waters going down in size on the flies and tippets can get you more action.

I think the average size of flies sold has been going down every decade. When I started selling flies in 1965 we sold lots of 10, 12 and 14 flies. In the past 20 years it has been more 14, 16 and 18 size flies.

I think as people evolve they will have a wider range of fly sizes in their boxes.

I love to be able to use big dries on top with large tippets but it is not very common anymore. Up in British Columbia out of Rainbow Lodge on Nimpo Lake we fish the Upper Dean River where they have a stone fly hatch in July. We use a #8 Stimulator dries on 4x tippet for 10 to 20 inch wild Rainbow Trout. That is really fun.

[Jgoding]

Few years ago on the Trinity the fish were not taking much except some size 22 pt's I had tied in various colors. Not sure why because not much of anything was hatching but the fish were feeding heavily apparently. Weeks prior the fish would hit just about anything too...

Jeff

[fallriverfish]

I like the old pick up the rock and look at the bottom trick. There are usually lots of small clinger nymphs in olives, browns and blacks that appear to be smaller then size 20. This is on alot of our Northern California Blue Ribbons ( Hat, McCloud, Upper Sac) On the Fall there are hatches of mayflys that are also smaller than size 20. There is a little white/yellow mayfly, maybe in the ephmerella family that is smaller than a 20. As for beatis I do believe there are some really tiny species 22-24. And Tricos are small also. I like to tie thread body flies for the small stuff. WD40's but with legs. They are easy to spin and on a 2487 seem to hook fish. The micro caddis is something worth looking into. I tie the fox's poopah in 20 in both orange and black and it really crushes at odd times. (Middle of the day no wind) Brassies in small sizes also can be a fish getter during high sun and no wind. I have some 32's I tied with red thead and a little black dubbing on the head but have not fished them.

Hooking fish is where it gets a little dicey. You will get the grabs alot of times with the small bugs but getting a good hook set is another story. The ratio of weight to float (indicator) is critical and also the distance between the weight and flies is very important. I have a tough time fishing anything finer than 6x because I don't want to over tire the fish. Frog Hair flouro in 7x is the toughest stuff I have found. I used to use the Enrico Puglisi but the spools weren't consistent in breaking strength. I think a fresh spool of Enrico in 7x is pretty darn strong.

Check out the book Micro Patterns from Darrel Martin. He has done alot of research on hook deformations at different pressures.

Good topic.

[Ed Wahl]

Hey Bill, I woulda thought that someone buying 4 dozen flies of any size would get your attention. You getting a little jaded or is that a common purchase? Just yanking your chain buddy. :) :) I tied up a couple dozen spotlight emergers years ago in 18 through 22, still have most of them but the few times I've needed them they were invaluable. One of those just in case boxes I carry around for years without using. Come to think of it, one of the biggest browns I've caught came from one of those, in the meadow stream above Wrights Lake just before ice up.They wouldn't even look at anything larger.

[Terry Thomas]

Hey Gregg,
Good to see you again in the shop last week and best of luck on your new business venture. Tiny flies...I guess in most cases we can narrow the subject to mayflies and midges. I have no doubt that some kinds of mayflies come in the 22-24 size range. The question is whether you need to focus your energy tying much in that range. Some species of mayflies have multiple hatches with each succeeding hatch being smaller. My experiences on Fall River and Hat Creek lead me to believe that a size 20 will do the job late in the season when these smaller bugs come off. Midges...well, they can be pretty small too. However, if you read Chan and Rowley some midges in their neck of the woods can be as large as 10's. Long answer made short. I don't tie flies smaller than 22's and almost all of them 20's or larger. I think we need to worry more about presentation than whether it's a 22 or 18. That's me 2 cents worth.
Terrly

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Terry is a retired school teacher who has spent more than 20 summers in his trailer near Burney so he knows the Fall River and Hat Creek as well as anyone.

He is the kind of person I ask question about fishing Spring Creeks.

[bigtj]

On many colorado tailwaters, such as the Platte, the Blue, or the Frying Pan, at times - especially in the winter - you won't catch many fish if you don't use flies in the 20-26 range. People who fish excluisvely in California are not often exposed to waters that require these small of flies. Living out in Colorado really opened my eyes on how effective small flies can be. However, since I moved back to Reno, I hardly ever use anything smaller than a #20. On most of the streams I fish, even the tailwaters, the fish prefer bigger midges, usually a #18. There are exceptions but for the most part I don't use those smaller flies unless I'm back in CO. So my answer would be to tie up a few effective midge patterns, like a mercury midge or an RS-2, in sizes 20-22, and save them for special circumstances. All of your "regular" flies like Bird's nest, PT's etc. you can stop at an 18.

[Rick J]

Where I normally use small flies is on spring creeks - my favorite being Silver Creek and I limit myself to dries and emergers and do not use nymphs - but I definitely tie tricos and BWO to size 24 - one of my favorite patterns is an extended body using ultrachenille (see attached photo) - I tie it with both a black and an olive body with black thorax. I like Bill's idea of using short shank hooks to get a bigger gap and do this often.

The one place I use subsurface flies is on lakes to imitate midge pupae and I have gone as small as 26 though most are 20's. Another place for small midges is the Owahyee in Eastern Oregon - lots of midges - both pupae and dries.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/RickJ/trico004.jpg