An "Egg"-Ceptional Time Of Year To Fish!

[Bob Laskodi]

Many fly fishers refuse to fish egg patterns and insist it's "not fly fishing". Well, I don't buy that one bit as these pictures show you can have an "egg"ceptional fishing expedition if you keep an open mind! These are not steelhead, but a mix of lake run and resident rainbow trout from a small creek that I can almost "pee" across!
The creek is no secret to NorCal anglers (but if you SoCal guys don't recognize it and want to know where just PM me) and it gets fished heavily, but unless you really know how to fish it, it can be tough fishing. The biggest mistake is anglers target the large fish they see actively spawning on the redds. While this is obviously tempting and easy, in reality it is unethical to fish for actively spawning fish. Plus, it's a waste of time to fish to these fish because they will not eat and the only way you can catch them is by lining/snagging them (and many do, unfortunately) .
The real secret is to observe these fish while spawning. What you will notice is that very few fish are actually spawning while on the redd. What you will see are a few fish paired up and dropping eggs, and then some other fish "swoop" in and eat the eggs, and then get chased off the redd by the actively spawning fish. Watch where these "egg robbers" go after they get chased off the redds. It will usually be into some nearby "cover" where they will wait a few minutes to rest before going back up into the redd to steal more eggs. Nearby can be any where from 10 to 50 feet so watch the egg robbers closely and fish to where they are "resting" not while they are on the redds. If you practice this simple technique, you will experience "stoopid" fishing for very large fish!
If you fish to fish on the redds, you may line/snag a big fish, you may actually get an "egg robber" or two, but you won't be catching many fish! To illustrate this point clearly, I was actually fishing about 50 feet below an active redd in a riffle that was probably only a foot deep that had some rocks to break the flow. Guess where the biting fish were? In back of the rocks of course! Every "angler" came down the stream, saw the big fish actively spawning on the redds and fished to them without much success. Whenever they got tired of not catching fish and left, I started fishing my spot and experienced "stoopid" fishing. My count was for every fish they lined/snagged, I landed ten fish, are fairly hooked inside the mouth!
The final "body count" was around 30 fish landed, with five of those over 20" with the largest taping out at a little short of 24".
The only flies I used the entire day was a small "cheese" egg, and a size 22 black midge larvae. The fish took the egg about 80% of the time. I was lucky, and never lost a rig or changed flies the entire day!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/laskodi/c7648867.jpg
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/laskodi/c7648867-1.jpg

[Darian]

Hmmmm, Judging from the size of the stream in the pictures, I'd say if you think you could "....pee...." across it, you're braggin'. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Beautifully colored Trout, tho. 8) 8)

[dtp916]

Whoa!!! Nice fishys! :D Sounds like you were reeling them in all day, way to go!

[lee s.]

Yo Bob,
We used to park the hay truck near the end of that bridge by the white pipe gates at the east end and break up the day watching pods of those fish in feeding lanes below the bridge. Made for a very nice break. :wink:
....lee s.

[Katz]

I frequent that exact spot and agree with you completely!

Kraig

[bigtj]

I believe that peoople who choose to not fish with egg patterns are missing out. I believe fishing withought egg patterns reduces your chance of chatching seelhead by about 95% in the winter and 50% in the summer. My reason for this? The top steelhead guides in terms of success rate in the Pacific Northwest pretty much all have their dudes side drift out of a drift boat with big glo-bugs. Sure, there are guys that specialize in fishing the swing, but their clients catch a handful of fish a week when they could be catching a handful of fish a day. And in some places I've found trout fishing it reduces your chances by 95%. What is wrong with imitating a food source that is found naturally in the drift?

The only thing I have a problem with is people actively harassing fish on the spawing beds with egg flies, whether they be trout, salmon, or steelhead. The simple fact of the matter is just stay away from spawning areas unless you can sight-fish to fish eating eggs that arent' actively spawning (e.g. trout eating eggs on Salmon redds). It's the bozos pounding trout or steelhead redds with glo-bugs that give this type of fishing a bad name.

[Darian]

Sooooo,.... is anyone who chooses to fish traditional Steelhead patterns or leeches, etc., on the swing (rather than an egg pattern) included in your "snooty" characterization :?: :?: :?:

[bigtj]

Darian, good point I edited my post. Poor choice of words on my part.

I love to fish traditional patterns, if I knew I would catch fish on them regularly I would fish them all the time. However, I know from expereience I'll do a lot better on a rabbit leech or a glo bug. So, I fish the classic patterns under ideal conditions for them, then switch to glo bugs when they will seriously out-perform other patterns. I spent way too much time swinging classic patterns in futility in the winter to make it worth my while on a regular basis. Just my own extremely biased opinion.

-John

[Darian]

It's a good, biased opinion, too. 8) :lol: :lol:

[slimfishin's]

Well, my small brain is spinning as I'm confused. From what I understand from this string, it is NOT ethical to angle for fish spawning on their redds.... but is totally fine to fish that are going to be on their redds in a matter of weeks? I suspect that most of those big fish caught were adfluvial fish that were on their migration getting ready to spawn - along with all those other fish already on the gravel. From the pictures, it looks like most of them were even in their spawning colors already. I don't think that realistic to assume that fish following spawning pairs looking for a handout aren't going to be spawning themselves in a short while after. I really don't have any problem with sort of fishing, I just think people need to consider the biger picture.

SF

[Darian]

Hi Slim,.... You may already be aware of it but years ago in Calfornia, Winter fishing for Steelhead closed (on lower portions of coastal rivers/streams) at the end of february each year and didn't reopen until the regular Trout season began. 8) This was done to protect spawners in their redds. On coastal rivers/streams, the main runs of Steelhead occured during late February, March and April. The upper secvtions of these rivers/streams were never open. At some point, this State decided to open Steelhead fishing all year (....with some restrictions related to in-stream flows or outright closures in some places). :? :?

What I'm trying to get across is that this same debate/issue took place back then and hasn't really been resolved to everyones satisfaction since. I'm not sure it ever will be.... :? :? :?

I agree that having a bigger picture is helpfull.... 8) 8) 8)

[Bob Laskodi]

If you have ever fished for steelhead, you are fishing for a spawning rainbow trout. The only reason that they are even in the river is to spawn. I suspect that most of us enjoy fishing for steelhead, and in fact there is a special section on this board for that topic. So why is fishing for a lake run spawning rainbow any different?

[Darian]

Not sure I understand where you're going here.... :?: :?: :? :? I thought we were discussing fishing over spawning beds. I used some history of the Coastal Steelhead to illustrate the point that a debate over the ethics of fishing in spawning areas has gone on forever and remains unresolved. I thought it had universal application. 8) 8) 8) Or not..... :? :?

[slimfishin's]

Darian, I am right there with you. Fishing for spawners is a tricky business.

SF

[Hairstacker]

Darian, actually, I thought this thread had evolved into a discussion as to whether it is ethical to angle for fish that are not yet on their spawning beds. In that context, it seems Bob has a point when he draws an analogy with steelhead fishing in general?

[jbird]

This thread has taken a very interesting turn.. I really like the points that both Slim and Bob brought up. Some food for thought indeed.
My first impression of the subject would be something like this. If a fish is caught before it is on its redd and spawning, that fish may more likely continue on its journey to find a mate and its ultimate goal. A spawning fish actually hooked and taken off its redd, I believe, (and this is total speculation) would be much more traumatized and disrupted and less likely to continue a healthy spawning performance (if any at all).
Well, look at it this way...kids, cover your eyes...If I were disrupted or traumatized a couple days before mating, I'd probably still perform as expected (no comments please :wink: :lol: ) But If I were hooked, grabbed and held underwater while in the act, I think I might lose that lovin feelin....for a while...in the mean time, some other bully might move in on my girl....Wow, ya know what, I'm glad i'm not a fish :shock: :D

Jay

[dtp916]

Well, my small brain is spinning as I'm confused. From what I understand from this string, it is NOT ethical to angle for fish spawning on their redds.... but is totally fine to fish that are going to be on their redds in a matter of weeks? I suspect that most of those big fish caught were adfluvial fish that were on their migration getting ready to spawn - along with all those other fish already on the gravel. From the pictures, it looks like most of them were even in their spawning colors already. I don't think that realistic to assume that fish following spawning pairs looking for a handout aren't going to be spawning themselves in a short while after. I really don't have any problem with sort of fishing, I just think people need to consider the biger picture.

SF

Unless I'm mistaken, I thought that these rainbows were caught recently, and Rainbow Trout spawn in the spring not fall. Steelhead are another story. Maybe this little creek has a fall run rainbow :?: :D

Fishing for trout on the spawn IS tricky business. Good chance to catch some big ones that hide in the depths of deep water during the normal season at the lake.

[ycflyfisher]

I'm not at all understanding the implication that those that elect to fish traditional and stick to their respective guns aren't:

1- Aware of the effectiveness of egg patterns
or
2- Are closed minded about the validity of fishing 'non-traditional' methods simply because they don't often elect to do it themselves.

What's really ironic it that the predominantly lead and indicator slinging crowd always seem to think that the tried and true traditional crowd is always looking down their collective noses at the bobber and egg advocates. Yet it's ALWAYS the latter in most internet discussions that draw the 'proverbial line in the sand' either by straight up traditionalist bashing or insinuating that the traditionalists are to stupid to figure it out just because they're not in agreement with the concensus opinion of what constitutes 'flyfishing' on a personal level.

I certainly don't recall any traditionalists openly bashing anyone on this forum for fishing egg patterns in those various disscussions, yet it's always just a matter of time before the implicit denegrating comments come from the other direction.

Personally, I couldn't care less how anyone else is fishing. I'll on occasion fish with indicators and shot in the Trinity basin but know several anglers that will not do it via their own personal beliefs. Breaking tradition on the Klamath is something I'll never do. I respect those opinions and actually think it takes a great deal of character that most don't have to never break tradition amidst plummeting water temps and a river full of drifting roe.

Most traditionalists do tend to look down on bobber fisherman but it has more to do with the condesending attitudes and the outright disrespect for those that value tradition that prevail and not actually how anyone is fishing method wise.

It's also rather insulting when the implication is tossed about that the greaseliners are settling for a 'handful of fish a week'. and that fishing tradtional is never the percentage method. There is definitely a point in the run progression where the balance shifts and indo nymphing becomes the percentage method. When the water's low and clear and the fish are easily spooked and early in the run progression, and when the fish are podded up and cycling but not moving, there's no doubt in my mind which method is vastly more effective.

The "10 percent of the fisherman are catching 90 percent of the fish" rule applies to greaselining just as it does other methods. Anyone who actually thinks that it isn't not only effective but at times is the percentage method likely hasn't spent enough time fishing the greaseline to get to know someone who's really profficient at it IMO.

[windknot]

Unless I'm mistaken, I thought that these rainbows were caught recently, and Rainbow Trout spawn in the spring not fall. Steelhead are another story. Maybe this little creek has a fall run rainbow :?: :D

This creek in fact does have a healthy winter run of rainbows. One of the only places in California where I've seen them, actually. Some people say it's because they're descended from landlocked steelhead which were trapped in the creek while spawning in the winter.

As for the debate at hand, I see slimfishin's point that egg-eating trout are more than likely future spawners, and I also see Bob's point that fishing for trout that will spawn in a week or two is no different than fishing for steelhead in any river. Personally I'm fine with fishing for anything that's not actively spawning, but that's just me. :?

[jbird]

Holy cow YC! I think you just posted in the wrong thread!!! :shock: I'm pretty sure the discussion is about how effective eggs are and to be mindful of fishing around spawning fish. There isnt even a hint of bobber vs tradition in this discussion. As far as being a traditionalist that doesnt speak lowly of other fisherman....you just set your own trap and fell right in! :lol:

J

[David Lee]

Personally I'm fine with fishing for anything that's not ACTIVELY spawning, but that's just me.

Yup !! Me , too .

I've also got no issue with fishing an egg fly (no ... not beads) . Nymphs , both large and small ... and Crayfish , are both kicked-up while Trout are cutting redds , so a two-fly rig is a great choice .

But Bob already mentioned that 8)

David :D

[Bob Laskodi]

As Hairstacker already correctly pointed out my response was directed to several responses, starting with "SF" that implied that fishing for these fish was not exactly "proper". I simply pointed out that if you fish for steelhead (and I'll add shad and stripers both of which have their own special sections on this forum) they are spawning fish also, and I really don't see any difference between that and fishing for lake run rainbows. YMMV. And yes, I fish for steelhead, lake run rainbows, shad, and stripers! And I enjoy them all and never fish for them on their spawning beds! I actually started this thread to "educate" the many individuals who I see fishing that particular creek who head straight to the spawning beds to fish for actively spawning fish because they see them easily and think they can catch them. In fact, Chris got in a verbal altercation on that very day with an older gentleman who obviously was a skilled FF and fishes that creek regularly and was doing exactly that. I prefer to offer an alternative solution to fishing the "beds" rather than getting in someones face to educate them. So I posted a "how-to" thread that does not involve fishing on the beds.

[David Lee]

And .... it's a GREAT "how-to" thread ! I wish the folks that I see on the Salmon redds in the American and Feather would read it .....

Thanks , Bob !!

David :D

[Darian]

OK Guys,... I'll try one more time. My point was that the debate about whether to fish over spawners or potential spawners was happening a long time ago and continues to date. It is not likely to stop anytime soon. 8) I made/make no value judgement about the practice. 8) 8)

Jay, I have to agree with YCF in his statements. The original posts appeared to be of the nature of a lecture to those too uniformed or too traditional to use egg patterns in catching Rainbows/Steelhead. That was followed up by a post that resulted in mine asking about the "snooty" characterization. To his credit, that person corrected/edited his post. That's why you didn't read/see the statements made. 8)

Mike, I wasn't contesting Bob's or Slim's points but as stated above, merely pointing out the endless debate. 8)

This is a interesting debate over a sensitive and timely, subject. we just need to stop jumping to conclusions about statements or by characterizing one side or the other in a negative light. 8) 8) 8)

POST ON DUDES!!!!!

[jbird]

Darian
Thanks for pointing that out. Somehow I missed those couple posts. Nevertheless, in response to YCs comment....
I certainly don't recall any traditionalists openly bashing anyone on this forum for fishing egg patterns in those various disscussions, That is because this is the best, most informative, non biased ff forum on the internet.

Personally, I love flyfishing, I like doing it every way there is....(well, I'm not too crazy about tying on bugs that are too small to see...but thats just cause I'm a clutz) From swinging to egging. this topic has been hashed and rehashed here...civily I might add. One thing I am 100% certain of, there is an equal amount of hecklers in each camp. Thats partly why the debate will never be settled and is actually a futal argument. If you get way more oppinions in one camp than the other, you'll end up with regulations like the n. Umpqua. I am not bad mouthing that at all, I think thats fine. But I'd get ruffled if those regs started spreading throughout our region. Thats not a situation of traditionalists saying its better to swing, their saying youre not allowed to do anything else.
But no matter what happens in these discussions, one side will state its oppinion, and the other will rebutt, its a visious cycle and weve already heard it all.

J

[Jgoding]

Can't we all just put on an egg sucking leach and get along??

I say to each his own. I do not personally nymph with an indicator or use split shot or throw eggs because I suck at it (and ff in general). I could never get the feel of bouncing stuff off the bottom so I pretty much stay clear from it.
Personally I wouldn't even fish an area with redds as I wouldn't want to disturb anyone trying to exchange gametes out of respect but the lure of actively feeding fish is strong and if it works I won't knock it but it doesn't mean I'd stoop so low errrrr attempt to bounce egg patterns along the bottom to catch a few fish... :D

[bigtj]

YC,

I appreciate your comments you have made some good ones. I want to clarify that my post wasn't intended to bash traditionalists I simply wanted to point out that I think some folks are missing out for the sake of an ideal.

In many respects I believe you comments apply more to summer fishing not winter runs, especially on the coast. And let me clarify my comments come from my experience fishing for winter-run steelhead in N. CA and S. Oregon over the past 15 years in, shall we say, less than ideal conditions. We all know that turbidity in coastal rivers is an issue for fly-fishermen. For example, grease line on the S. Fork of the Coquille in January with 1 foot of vis is about as sure a way to end up getting skunked as I can think of. That's what I'm talking about. I fish egg patterns in the winter on teh coast because those fish are keyed on on eggs and they'll pick them up in dirty water. 95% of the time they won't even see a swung fly in these condtions. On rivers like the Mad people catch fish on the swing all the time but they are snagging those fish with heavy heads and this isn't my cup of tea. On the other hand, fish will voluntarily pick up a glo bug much more readily. Why not use a fly/tactic that's going to have a greater success rate of the fish grabbing the fly?

The biggest mistake I see most fly-fishermen make in winter steelheading on the coast is waiting for the water to be clear enough to fish a fly. I am convinced that catch rates by gear fisherman are so high not only because they are fishing with roe, but because they fish the most ideal conditions in terms of the # of moving fish, when most fly-fishermen won't bother. By the time most coastal streams have cleared to the 4-6 feet of vis that flyfishermen look for, most of the fish have blown through or are holding and sucess rates will be way down because these fish aren't as agressive as moving fish. There are exceptions - a few coastal and tailwater streams stay relatively clear at high water - but most don't.

I grease line almost exclusively in the fall in clear water for summer runs when the conditions are prime for these methods because I want to catch the "players" and because I know I've got a shot at the fish seeing the fly. So that's a different ballgame. Sticking to traditional grease-line tactics in the winter vs. switching to an egg pattern and side drifting makes a big, big difference in catch rate under the prevailing conditions. That may not matter to some folks, but from my perspective, I think a lot of people are missing out on opportunities to catch fish solely for the sake of tradionalism or unwillingness to try a technique that is perceived as "unfair". That's their perogative, I'm not telling anyone to fish eggs patterns, I'm just saying that fishing a glo-bug is a deadly way to catch fish, and the folks that aren't fishing them are missing out.

As far as fishing for spawners, it is indeed a slippery slope to climb on. I realize now I probably should have just kept my mouth shut on this topic. I realize that as soon as I tie on a glo-bug I risk harassing a spawning fish. I do my best to avoid that by carefully selecting the water I fish, sight-fishing when I can, and avoiding prolonged fights with the fish I am lucky enough to hook. I guess that's all I can do short of not fishing.

-John

[Darian]

Hey John,.... I've seen quite a few people walk away from a coastal river/stream 'cause it was dirty. :( I learned from an older fly fisher that at any point in time, some portion of a river/stream will be fishable during or after a storm (unless it's a complete blow-out). IMHO, fly fishing is realistic with visibilities as little as 18" and have caught a few fish in less visibilty than that. 8) 8)

In order to succeed at that game, you have to be flexible enough to choose the right fly and the right water. 8) An egg pattern certainly is good choice (with the possible exception of fishing in an estuary/tidewater). 8) 8)

[jbird]

I once heard if you can see your boots in knee deep water, its clear enough. I'll take it one step further...if you are in knee deep water, you may as well fish anyway. I've caught a good number of fish when I couldnt see my boots. I will add that the fishing tends to be much better on a falling river level than a rising. I let that determine my motivation more than tubidity.

J

PS This thread has really taken a couple hairpins, I am speeking in terms of steelhead. Sorry Bob for the tangant, I love your first post.

[bigtj]

Darian,

Yes you're right. I used to be one of those people who would walk away! Not anymore. I don't know how those fish can see in those conditions but zero doubt in my mind remains any more. 16-18' of vis in wate that has a sage color to it = let's go fishin'!

Jay - that's hilarious. Yes, once your knees are wet you might as well fish anyway. I love it.

-John

[dtp916]

Unless I'm mistaken, I thought that these rainbows were caught recently, and Rainbow Trout spawn in the spring not fall. Steelhead are another story. Maybe this little creek has a fall run rainbow :?: :D

This creek in fact does have a healthy winter run of rainbows. One of the only places in California where I've seen them, actually. Some people say it's because they're descended from landlocked steelhead which were trapped in the creek while spawning in the winter.


SON OF A B>>>> I'm going fishin tomorrow with a box full of beads, uh, I mean glo-bugs :D :lol:

Good to know they have winter spawners, I haven't been down there in 6 years. So many anglers are fishing, and I need a little solitude sometimes, if you know what I mean 8) 8) 8)

[ycflyfisher]

Holy cow YC! I think you just posted in the wrong thread!!! :shock: I'm pretty sure the discussion is about how effective eggs are and to be mindful of fishing around spawning fish. There isnt even a hint of bobber vs tradition in this discussion. As far as being a traditionalist that doesnt speak lowly of other fisherman....you just set your own trap and fell right in! :lol:

J

You've gotta be kidding. Assume I left a post on some aspect of fishing traditional. Say for arguement sake it was on the differences of the wet fly swing with a dryline vs the greaseline which IMO is far more effective. Assume I included a dozen or so date stamped pictures of fish to further illustrate the effctiveness of this method. Assume that the post was written in a clear and concise manner that gave those who don't know anything about it , a very good visual on how it should be executed. Assume that it was simply the best piece on the subject matter that you've ever read. BUT assume I prefaced the message with the following:

" Many fly anglers continue to fish egg patterns under an indicator and insist they're flyfishing and not baitfishing with a flyrod. I don't buy that one bit, as these pictures clearly show you can still catch a ton of fish providing you're openminded enough to abandon the bobber and shot on occasion"

Compare that with this:
"Many fly fishers refuse to fish egg patterns and insist it's "not fly fishing". Well, I don't buy that one bit as these pictures show you can have an "egg"ceptional fishing expedition if you keep an open mind! "


Had I left such a post how much positive feedback do you think I'd have gotten on the content regardless of how well written it was IF I were to include such an envenomed intro?

How many DOZENS of comments do you think would have been left about the envenomed intro totally ignoring the content of the message?

I'll not trouble you or anyone else here ever again with the emcumberance of pondering why this discussion(or similar but even more flagrant discussions in the past here) up to the point where I responded was not only denegrating , but purposely so. This forum is obviously one where the traditionalist view is only welcome if it doesn't involve pointing out all the blatant and also the somewhat less malign, implicit traditionalist bashing that's allowed to continue here.

[David Lee]

This forum is obviously one where the traditionalist view is only welcome if it doesn't involve pointing out all the blatant and also the somewhat less malign, implicit traditionalist bashing that's allowed to continue here.

Ouch !!

Well .... compaired to the other forums I've seen , I'd say there's very little bashing of ANY sort going on here . I guess it's my perspective , though .....

Sorry you feel that way .

David :?

[Hairstacker]

ycflyfisher, let me open with the fact that I've personally never bashed or even remotely implied bashing traditional fly fishing. Far from it, I think you'll find that I've posted in the past to defend it when I thought it was being unfairly maligned.

That said, I think you should carefully re-read the opening statement you just identified as being offensive:


"Many fly fishers refuse to fish egg patterns and insist it's "not fly fishing". Well, I don't buy that one bit as these pictures show you can have an "egg"ceptional fishing expedition if you keep an open mind!"

To be honest, I don't read this as a bash at traditional fly fishing. Rather, I read this as simply a defense of fishing egg patterns. With all due respect (and I mean that), is it possible you're reading things into the opening statement that aren't there?

I sincerely hope you don't leave -- I and I'm sure many others would love to hear and benefit from your knowledge and experiences in the realm of traditional approaches to steelheading. I just bought a book on the subject recently and would sure appreciate augmenting my knowledge on this subject. :)

[jbird]

YC
I'm sorry youre so upset. Even dispite your angry interjections in this thread, your fellow members continue to post in a civil, if not kind hearted manor. You have to admit this forum is one in a million. Its like having a best friend that you disagree with on politics...just dont bring up the subject and enjoy the relationship :D Theres so much to glean from this forum and the friends here, its not worth arguing over stuff like this. Not everyone agrees on everything, thats why theres chocolate and vanilla ice cream :D :D :) 8)

J

[Darian]

OK Guys,.... Altho I've enjoyed the bi-play in this, it's probably because I have a sick mind. SOOooo,.... In the interest of everyone concerned, let's get off this topic area. 8) 8) 8)

YCF,.... Hope you didn't mean that you do not intend to participate any longer.... I've enjoyed the subject/content of the many subjects you've posted here.... :D :D

[bigtj]

YC,

I just wanted to re-iterate that your comments are appreciated and I will definitley try to open my mind and fish the swing this year. Thanks for the comments.

-John

[mike N]

YC,

I'm with you and I apreciate your candor.

MN