Matching tippet brands: Myth or Truth?

[Redfish1]

Hey folks, I'm a bit new to the board, so here goes.

I've often heard a piece of advice about tippets and leaders that goes something like this:

"You should always use the same brand tippet and leader, otherwise, your knot strength will be lower, since one brand may be harder than the other and cut through the softer brand..."

Have you guys ever had any problem tying Umpqau to Rio - or some other combination of brands that seemed incompatible? I'm starting to think that as long as your tippet/leaders aren't old and rotten, this might be more of an urban legend.

RF
:?:

[jbird]

RF.

Welcome to the board, The best flyfishing forum on the internet, hands down.

I have never heard of that, but it sounds plausible to a minute degree.
My only question would be....Whats the point? If you are just trying to use up a hodge-podge of leftover tippets, I would suggest biting the bullet and buying a few new spools of your most used "X" sizes of a brand you trust and then there will be no worries. It would give you one less excuse for losing the fish of a lifetime :lol: :lol: :D :D :wink: Theres a lot of good products out there now, and you wont be sorry for making sure your tippet/leader system is in top condition.

Have fun out there :D

J

[Hairstacker]

Welcome aboard! I've never heard that one either, although I have heard it's preferable to construct a leader out of a single brand in order to ensure consistency of limpness/stiffness of the sections. To be honest, I'm not sure how much that matters either.

I'm totally with Jay on this -- why take a chance? Should always strive to eliminate potential problems in the items within your control.

[dtp916]

Welcome RF! I HAVE heard of the rumor you speak about :D . And quite frankly, it could be true. Different mono's are stiffer than others and it's based on personal preference. Some of them are stiffer to turn over in windy conditions :x and some are supple for delicate presentations 8) .

But I have mixed brands and can't say I've noticed a difference in break offs or decreased knot strength. One thing I would recommend is always wet your knots (with spit or water) before pulling them tight, it increases the hold.

I am not a fan of Umpqua, but all the leaders and tippets I have are Rio. Actually I buy Rio mono leaders and attach Rio Flourocarbon tippet to that. I've had great success with that and guys at several fly shops have told me that is fine to do that.

One thing I remembered fishing guide/tier (now Reno Fly Shop manager)Andy Burk telling me one day we were fishing, is that mono is probably THE cheapest thing we buy for fishing. Don't try to tie knots with a tiny amount of line, its just gonna piss u off and waste time. So, while you may hear that its not a good idea to mix brands, ultimately I don' think it matters 8) 8) 8)

[Darian]

Actually,.... Bill Nash's book on knots, etc., recommends not moistening any knot using flourocarbon materials. Also, in my own experience, Frog Hair running lines are already very slick. They may not need much, if any, moisture. A bimini that I had tied into the material loosened on a trip to Baja last June. Of course, there's always the possibility that it was operator error. :? :? Not likely, tho. 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

[dtp916]

Interesting, Darian...I must admit I'm relatively new to using flourocarbon, but come to think of it, how is it possible to over-moisten a knot made to go in the water? :roll: :lol: I'll have to get my hands on a copy of Bill Nash's book.

I have always moistened my knots, being under the impression that you can draw the knot tighter, therefore enabling you to cut the tag ends closer w/o chance of the knot slipping. The knots will hopefully be smaller and have less of a chance of picking up algae and debris in the water.

The only break offs I've got is the fly to tippet knot that I usually don't moisten. I can't recall ever breaking off a fish when I moistened the knot to connect the fly :ninja:


A bimini that I had tied into the material loosened on a trip to Baja last June. Of course, there's always the possibility that it was operator error. :? :? Not likely, tho. :roll:...really...:^o :^o :^o :lol: :lol:

[Redfish1]

Thanks for the info folks! OK, here's one I've been battling with for years.
Is there any web site or the like that tests tinsel strength vs. diameters in tippets? What about knot strenght for different tippets? I've used a lot of Maxima, but it seams really thick for its test

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Honestly, I do use that same recommendation which is merely good advise for those who don't want to test everything to see what is compatible and what is not.

I always recommend using 'fresh' knotless tapered leaders and matching tippet material for trout fishing.

I do like FC because it is supposed to last 'forever'. Then I don't have to worry about how old it is.

This recommendation is usually for beginners to keep them from having problems they don't need at that stage of the game.

Many here are very seasoned and will buy and test different materials to see how they merry up.

Some mono can be very stiff/hard and other is soft/limp so they might not knot together well.

Many mix leaders and tippet though.

You might like a stiffer tapered leader(Rio) to turn over the fly and a limper tippet material (Orvis SS) to get a good drag free drift.

I guess this discussion could go on endlessly but the original post is a worthy one.

Thanks and welcome Redfish.

PS: Where do you live?

[Darian]

Hey all,.... I'm not aware of any website for testing leader materials but do recommend that you acquire a copy of Bill Nash's book or CD titled, Fly Casting Systems. 8) This book covers, "The Best knots, Leader Design, Knots for Big Game, Selecting the Right Lines, Assembling A System, etc. Each knot listed is rated for breaking strength by % a diagram/written description of how to tie the knot. 8) 8)

This book is not a technical tome. So, it's easily read/used. Since this book isn't stocked by Kiene's, you can either ask Bill to order/stock it or buy it direct. Try billsknots@aol.com. 8) 8) 8) 8)

[Hairstacker]

The last tab of the LeaderCalc program, which is essentially a fancy Excel workbook, does provide tippet diameter/strength ratings for a number of brands for easy comparison and, if I recall correctly, also groups the brands by degree of stiffness/limpness. This program, among other things, also provides zillions of leader formulas for those who want to tie their own and can be obtained for free online. Just do a google or yahoo search on "LeaderCalc."

[SteelieD]

I like to keep the brands the same. The only time I mixed it up, I was on a trip and the place I went to buy more tippet didn't have my brand. The results were bad! Not exactly a scientific test by any stretch, but enough for me to just stick with the same stuff through anf through.

[DocEsox]

I have had exceedingly bad luck adding fluorocarbon tippets to mono leaders. The fluoro is much harder and breaks the mono....lost many large rainbows in the Kenai doing this last year. This year I went to straight fluorocarbon....leader and tippet and did not break off one fish.....yes, that is correct, not one. Had some pull free but with no leader breakage. On this bigger trout I am sold on all fluoro.

My worthless 2 cents,
Brian

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Heh Doc

What brand and size are you using?

[Terry Thomas]

From my experience, I would agree with Brian. Joining dissimilar materials (mono to fluor) can be a problem. A traditional blood know seems to slip while a TRIPLE surgeon seems to hold pretty well. The smaller the size of the tippet, the greater slippage....IMHO.

[Darian]

Maybe the knots are the problem in attaching dissimilar leader materials. :? :? Last June, I used Hal Jannsens 30# & 40# material for a leader butt and Seaguard 20# flourocarbon for a tippet. I used a Perfection Knot for a loop to loop connection. No problems.... Broke off some flies, tho. :oops: :oops: :oops:

[bigtj]

It makes a lot of sense to use different materials when building your own leaders. For example, I mix stiffer maxima (leader butts) and other materials, such as fluoro (mirage) and mono (umpqua) for tippet and taper all the time in the knotted leaders I build with no problems. The key, I think, is to make sure you don't mix materials at the final connection, i.e. leader to tippet. For example, I use maxima for the butt (first 4 or 5 sections) and umpqua for part of the tapper and tipped (3 or 4 connections) so the last tippet connection is umpqua to umpqua. If you're using store-bought knotless leaders, the safest bet is to use the same type of tippet material. Or, in a pinch, just test it out by pulling on it and see if it's working. I've tried just about every combo you can think of and most of the time I haven't had problems mixing rio, dai-riki, umpqua, fluoro, etc. but time to time I've tied it on, pulled, have it come apart a couple times in a row, and said to myself, you'd better try something else.

If you do have to mix brands, go with a double or triple surgeons. When tied correctly I think this knot is less likely to slip due to differences in materials compared to a blood knot. I don't have anything to prove this, it just seems like a surgeons spreads out the pressure of the knot over a wider surface area of material than a blood knot, where the binding pressure seems to be more concentrated.

[Matt Frey]

Most of the time I mix brands, but at the same time I always connect with a triple surgeon's knot. I have never had a problem.

[Rick J]

I use flouro tippet to mono leader all the time for spring creek fishing - mainly Silver Creek and have not had a breakage problem - I use a 4 turn surgeons and it holds. this is with x and 7 x tippet.

I use flouro because it sinks a bit and has less glare on the water

[DocEsox]

Bill....this summer and fall I used Rio Fluoroflex and Fluoroflex Plus. I also used Orvis Mirage but had more breakage problem with it. Some of the other guys mentioned knots and they are probably right....when I had so much breakage last year I was tying almost exclusively blood knots. Surgeons knots held the dissimilar stuff better. But using the Rio I mostly use blood knots and have no problem. The Rio fluoro was really tough for me this year. Caught 25 dolly varden one afternoon only having to retie once.....

Brian

[JerryInLodi]

Darian, flourocarbon to mono is a definite no-no according to what I've read. The flourocarbon will cut the mono since it has a MUCH harder surface. Another thing about flourocarbon is that it's heavier so should not be used with dry flies since it sinks.

All the above is second-hand of course but from pretty good sources.

[Darian]

Hi Jerry,.... Don't quote me on this but I think Jay recommended this leader set-up. Haven't had the experience of flouro cutting the mono, personally.

The set-up I described was what I and my partner used at La Paz on saltwater species. No failures encountered on the material or the loop to loop connections. Had a bunch of fish on each day. So, there was plenty of opportunity for a failure to happen..... :? :? :?

The length of the butt section was 4'; the length of the tippet was 2'. 8) 8)

I haven't done any dry fly fishing for trout in many years.... But, I've never used flouro for anything lower than 12# test. 8)

[JerryInLodi]

Darian, I don't think you'd have a failure in a loop to loop connection with flouro to mono. I think the principal failures are in surgeon's knots tying flouro to mono in building a leader where the knot from the flourocarbon cuts the less resistant mono. Then again, usually the flouro section of the leader is the final tippet section and it is tyed to a thicker mono section so it may negate the problem.

I didn't comment on much of the above replies but I understand that the same thing occurs when mixing brands of mono of unknown origin. I've been told that many of the brands of tippet materials are jobbed out to a few manufacturers who simply introduce slightly different dye colors but that if you cross brands from these primary sources you're asking for trouble since surfaces can be much different as to material hardness.

[dtp916]

This is why I love this BB, so many different opinions :D

As I've said before, I attach flouro tippet to my mono knotless leaders - never had a problem. I use a standard double surgeons and wet it before tightening.

I honestly, know nothing about flourocarbon, other than it's supposed to be "invisible" to fish and stronger and more expensive. :lol:

I read somewhere, Ralph Cutter states that you want your dry fly tippet to sink so it doesn't cast a shadow over the fish or so they can't see it floating in the film. Come to think of it, my Rio flouroflex IS kind of stiff, and I know not dressing my tippet with floatant does cause the fly to sink sometimes when it's not supposed to. You guys might see me quote Ralph Cutter a lot, that's because I fish the Sierra mostly 8) 8) 8)

The only time I get break offs is the fly to tippet improved clinch knot ( that has happened maybe twice this year), OR when my nymph snags the bottom and I have to break it off. That's where I see Jerry and others talking about flouro being stiffer and cutting through the mono.

Should I be mixing it up like Bill said using mono perhaps for dries, because it's more supple :?:

Right when I thought I knew everything, I learn something else :lol: :lol:

[Rick J]

Jerry - re flouro and dry flies - I use flouro and actually want a bit of the tippet to sink. If you grease your leder right to the fly and the whole thing sits on top, the refraction really causes substantial glare looking up from a trout's view - the leader is much less noticable if it breaks the surface tension. I have seen a recent article (might have been a book) that showed photos looking up at a fly and leader and it was really amazing the differences.

[WinterrunRon]

I view combining different brands of line together like having different tires on each wheel of a vehicle... it'll work, but I'm of the opinion that you'll get uneaven performance/wear from the setup. If the tire blows, put on whatever spare you have, but replace the tire with the same brand as soon as possible, even if it's not the greatest set. At least the performance will be consistent between the set.

Same with line. Every company creates them differently trying for that marketing niche advantage in an effort to attract the fisherman. But my experience is, unlike other products, when you find a line you're happy with, that line seems to be consistently good within the product brand.

I prefer Orvis SS tippet and Maxima leader material. The added cost of good material is inconsequential to me since it's the link between me and the 10 hours fishing/one steellhead hookup odds I'm happy with and I really try to avoid the "I should've" of failure on the water.

Others may differ in opinion, obviously. Just my .02 worth. Great question!

Ron

[Redfish1]

Well I have to admit, I mostly have Umpqua and Maxima in my trout pack. It seems that those two are usually compatible, as long as you get the diameters about right, regardless of pound-test rating. (Try tying 6# maxima to 4X Umpua sometime....) For tippet knots, the surgeons loops seem too inconsistent for me, so I've gone to blood knots almost exclusively - especially in the larger mono sizes. I seem to have better luck with that knot holding, and it takes me just as much time to tie one blood knot as it does to tie three surgeons loops that break, until one finally holds. (Test those knots!)

In regards to the spreadsheet mentioned before. That is pretty intersting. However, I would suggest that it may not be completely accurate. I would argue that 6# Maxima seems much stronger than 4X Umpqua, even though they tested about the same. In my experience, that stuff is like steel thread, even though it is only rated as 6#. Granted, it's diameter is much larger, so it isn't always the best choice - but does make a good main line for nymphing rigs.

RF

[Darian]

Bill Nash's book says that flourocarbon is very sensitive to knots. Conecting knots in flourocarbon are 10% to 15% weaker than when tied using nylon or nylon copolymer materials. So, knot selection is very important.

Bill N., recommends a Kreh Loop or Becker knot for nylon, nylon copolymer materials and a Palomar knot for flourocarbon in non-loop connection to a fly. A knot for constructing a leader is a Blood knot. The reasoning is that knots used to construct a leader don't need to exceed a 70% strength limit. A Blood knot tests out at around 75%. There is a caveat, however. The differences in diameter between the materials joined should be .002" for maximum strength. A clinch or improved clinch
knot is not recommened for connecting to a fly.

Joining leader to tippet should require 100% strength. A knot recommended for that purpose is the double surgeons (100% strength).

All of that changes when constructing big game leaders.

I'm not sure what the rationale is for not wetting flourocarbon material but the author does asy that wetting flourocarbon knots is not recommended; particularly with saliva.

Now, all of this doesn't really address the question of mix and match but it does point out that diameter of the material and knots are probably as important as whether leaders are constructed of similar brands/materials.
8) 8) 8)

[slimfishin's]

So this discussion involving leader diameter and strength got me thinking. And then that spreadsheet came up, and that was just too convenient to ignore. I took the data out of that spreadsheet from the worksheet with the big table. I figured it would be instructive to look at the data from a regression standpoint, ie, "Is there a relationship between diameter and pound-test?" If so, what would it look like?

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k151/mkoenig/Diam_vs_Test3.jpg

So it turns out that there is a statistically significant relationship - which we all could have guessed (r-square is 0.77 when linear). But, what is intesting is that the relationship isn't exactly one-to-one. That is probably because of the variability in pound-test strength for the same diameter test. That's why a straight line fitted to the data doesn't explain as much variation in pound-test for a given diameter. In fact, a power function actually fits the data a lot better. If you look at the scatter plot of the data, you'll notice that the variation in pound-test for a given diameter increases with increasing diameter.

What does that mean?

Well, I guess it means that smaller diameter mono lines are generally closer in pound-test than bigger mono. That might mean it is more important to look at the pound test of your bigger mono to ensure that you are getting what you think you are, since some mono is noticably stronger than others for the same diameter.

Is this going to change how you buy mono? No, but I thought it was pretty interesting to see the data in a graph instead of a table.

SF :D

[Darian]

Wow!!! That's a cool plot.... I haven't visited the calculator site yet but am wondering if the "scatter plot" reflects differences in material (flouro vs mono) or doesn't take it into account :?: :?: :?:

Thanks for the graphics.... :D :D

[slimfishin's]

Daria, you really shouldn't encourage me :lol:

I'll see if I can look at the data again and maybe tease out differences by line type. Looking at the list of mono types, there's some nylon, flouro and varios mono. I'll have to group the stuff together to make meaningfull comparisons.

It's a good point, because that's could be an important factor in determining differences in diameter vs. pound test.

SF

[slimfishin's]

OK, here's another one from the same dataset, except this time you can tell the brand of each data point. I didn't include all of the brands, but just the ones that had the most complete set of numbers. This did inlcude a good sample of the "hard", "medium," and "soft," categories.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k151/mkoenig/Diam_vs_Test4.jpg

Here's the same data again, except I left off everything above 0.020" to give some better resolution to the smaller diameter lines - which most people use more often. Notice that Maxima Chameleon, and Ultragreen have exactly the same stats - but are classified as "hard" and "medium"... apparantly those Germans know how to formulate their mono... must be those big Braunschweiger (aka salmo trutta ). :wink:

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k151/mkoenig/Diam_vs_Test5-1.jpg

I wish there was a better data set for the fluorocarbon lines compared to mono. It would be nice to see that. Does anyone know if that might be available somewhere? The data would have to be the tested breaking strength of the material, not what is published on the label - as I suspect those might be a bit different.

SF

[Adam Grace]

Thanks for the charts!

[Tom Burton]

I just read Dave Hughes' book "Trout from Small Streams" and in chapter 3 he talks about his gear. '..........Buy base leaders and tippet spools of the same brand, or they'll be weak wherever you join them with knots. Buy a fresh set of leaders and tippet spools at the beginning of each season. Modern leader materials weaken with age'..............

I've had very little problem mixing leader/tippet brands but then I probably don't catch big fish.

[Adam Grace]

I also haven't experienced many problems when mixing brands but I try not to because I have learned through my experiences working for fly shops that you can experience problems. Because there are different hardnesses and elasticities with nylons you can have failure at the knots like most of you have said.

As far as fluorocarbon goes, I love it!. Very durable and strong. Great for subsurface fishing. I only use nylon when fishing dries, it is much more supple and straightens out and lays out better. Fluorocarbon lasts much longer when scrapping again rocks and brush when nymphing. Fluorocarbon's durability makes it last much longer when rubbing along a basses mouth.

My 2 cents

[Darian]

This stuff gets better and better.... But, just did a cursory Google search for test results for tensile strength of flourocarbon leader material and came up empty. Lotsa anecdotal information available, tho. 8) 8) Nothing in Bill Nash's book either. :?

[dtp916]

Adam, I wonder if you (or me :) ) could provoke more strikes while fishing dries with mono than with flouro??? It sounds like your going to get a better drift with mono, how come you don't like to use it for nymph fishing? I use flouro as well and like its strength and durability as you mentioned.

After sight fishing with nymphs this past weekend I saw lots of grabs on my nymphs and no reacton from my indicator :? :? :? Really makes me wonder if I'm losing a lot of hook ups while blind fishing since my indicator doesn't detect strikes as well as I thought it did ( I've used every type of indicator too). I was thinking maybe mono would give it an extra edge :?:

What I read so far is that Orvis SS seems to be the most supple (supplest? :lol: ). I use Rio which seems to be pretty stiff.

[Adam Grace]

James, I don't use mono (nylon) when nymphing because it absorbs water and the more water it absorbs the more it abrades. Just like you said, the reason for me to not use mono when fishing dries is because of how supple mono allows a better drift, IMHO.

As far as an indicator not indicating as well as you thought, that happens with or without indicators. Most people, most definitely including myself miss way more strikes than they ever realize. When using an indicator mending is very important to set up your drift to make your indicator as sensitive as possible. I like it when the current gently pulls my indicator downstream just a little bit because then I know that it can show me the more gentle grabs. High sticking w/o an indicator is more sensitive if executed properly but you can still miss strikes. This would make for a great topic as another thread, I'm gonna start one.

[JerryInLodi]

Darian, et al, you might look at this site. These people invented flourocarbon. They have some interesting stuff on their site.

http://www.seaguar.com/

By the way the Seaguar knot is only about 85% according to Bill.

[Darian]

Jerry,.... Interesting website. I notice that Seaguard recommends lubricating/wettng all knots. 8) 8) That's different than Bill's recommedation. :? :? Wonder what the rationale for either way is :?: :?: :?: