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View Full Version : Are Beads Actually Flies????



Darian
10-27-2006, 12:50 PM
Ok guys,.... Here's the follow-up question for the Poll under the topic, is bead fishing fly fishing :?: ..... Are beads placed on a leader (pegged or free sliding, tied or glued to, or melted onto a hook) actually flies :?: :?:

This subject shouldn't be overly controversial as what we're considering is fly construction/design....

IMHO, Beads incorporated into a fly design (e.g. Copper John, beadhead flies, etc.) are flies as the intent of their designer is to create a "fly" for use on whatever type of gear. Beads, whether slid down a leader, pegged, melted or glued onto a hook, tied to a hook by itself are not flies in the traditional sense. I like this definition as, when it comes to fly creation/design, I am a bit of an ol' fart, traditionalist. 8) 8) 8)

Having said that, I believe there's a lot of room for discussion here and am open to all suggestions. 8) 8) One fly design that uses a bead slid down a leader that's attached to a convential fly design is the Enfield Shad Fly. I consider this to be a fly as it is traditionally designated so. But, it does highlight the ambiguities involved. 8) 8)

Let's have some fun.... :D :D :D

Matt Frey
10-27-2006, 01:02 PM
This seems like an easy question for me.
To tie a fly in my opinion ... you need to use thread. If you arent using thread to tie down some form of a material to a hook, well then you arent tying a fly.

Bill Kiene semi-retired
10-27-2006, 01:24 PM
I think it is a personal choice whether we use a plastic bead as an egg imitation ourselves.

If it helps new fly fishers catch fish on a fly rod I think it is maybe a good thing.

Right now on most Valley rivers with some Fall salmon spawning going on, the best way to catch Steelhead or resident trout is with an indicator and an egg imitation.

Looks like the plastic beads are best.

My friends who have guided in the top Alaska lodges for over 20 years have been using beads for a long time. They actually sent me a selection of beads they sell to many of the other Alaskan lodges to catch giant lake run Rainbows in small rivers.

I don't know if the CA DF&G consider a bead to be a fly in some of the "fly fishing only" waters?

At one time people where getting fined by the CA DF&G over at Putah Creek in the winter (fly fishing only regs) for using a glow bug which the DF&G did not recognized as a "fly" at that time. This could have changed now though.

If a seasoned fly fisher is catching 10 Steelhead a day or 30 trout a day on beads, maybe it's time to move to something more challenging?

I think guides have to use what ever methods are most effective so they can make a living. Producing consistent numbers of fish per day is their job.

Myself, I don't need to catch many fish to be happy anymore. I get excited just having the time off out in the wilds with friends.

alaskanfish
10-27-2006, 01:59 PM
Think about this... In my opinion (at least where I fish) two of the most universal "flies" (actually streamers) are the "Wooly Bugger" (WB) and the "Egg Sucking Leach" (ESL). These flies, of course, are of very similar design. What if a person is fishing a WB but wanted to convert it to an ESL by simply sliding a bead in front of the WB? In appearance, this new "fly" would look very similar to the ESL tied with orange chenile (maybe even better?). So, is it a fly?

In a regulatory sense, in FFO areas, this would not necessarily meet the legal definition of a fly. But I ask, what is the difference between an ESL and a bead enhanced WB?

Bill, I really appreciate what you are saying, on all accounts. As a guide, some folks are paying for fish where others are paying for fishing... huge difference. It is important to quickly identify where the guests are in this arena. Those who are paying to catch fish will get the most productive means of catching fish. Though the experience for some will be exceedingly shallow, for the novice, catching is what it is all about.

Likewise, for the more experienced and accomplished fisher, it is all about getting better, learning more, and enjoying not only the challenge, but the surroundings while experimenting with different patterns and techniques. I really appreciated what you said about the accomplished fisher... if they are constantly producing great numbers of fish, maybe it is time to gain a little depth and stretch their abilities... maybe try to avoid the smaller average sized fish or even the more prominent species in any particular body of water and target the trophy sized or a specific species...? I am babbling...

For example, at least in the Alaska rivers/streams, in the fall, beads are exceedingly effective and will produce great numbers of fish, and sometimes large fish, however fishing flesh patterns, in the deep holes will not produce as many fish, but will typically produce larger fish. So, is the objective fishing or catching?

Matt Frey
10-27-2006, 02:07 PM
Alaskanfish
I am confused ... those both sound like flies to me. How do the regulations differentiate the two?

alaskanfish
10-27-2006, 02:15 PM
Matt,

I agree with you, but legally, technically, if a bead is used in an FFO area, it must be permanently attached to the hook; it cannot be pegged or free sliding. Doesn't particularly make sense to me either. :? In my opinion, an ESL will fish the same as a WB with a bead slid down the line. I do not see any advantage (or enhancement of ability to catch) with this rig, or increase danger of foul hooking or deep hooking. However, the advantage is if I don't have an ESL, but do have WB's, I can quickly simulate the ESL, if that makes sense...

Matt Frey
10-27-2006, 02:23 PM
Okay now I am following you. I did not realize that the bead was free moving. ... Now I need time to think! :?

Darian
10-27-2006, 05:00 PM
Hmmmm,.... So Far, the responses are quite broad....

For the purposes of this discussion, my intent in asking the question was to expand the discussion to what we think a fly is rather than what is legal in, say, Alaska or Montana or wherever. When I sit down to design/tie a fly, the question of legality of a particular design isn't part of my consideration..... 8) 8) Also, I'm not sure that where the bead/fly is to be fished is pertinent to this discussion since that definition differs in each state. If we add that factor into this discussion, we may not have a chance to arrive at a consensus. :? :?

As in the example of the free sliding bead in the other post, a WB (Egg Sucking Leech) pattern, I think that's a fly similar to the Enfield Shad Fly. IMHO, the bead is anticipated for use in and contributes to the effectiveness of the design. In the example, the pattern wouldn't necessarily be fished without the bead (altho it could be). 8) 8)

One of the defining factors might be, who ever heard of a Bead Swap among tiers :?: :?: :evil: :lol: :lol:

Hairstacker
10-27-2006, 05:14 PM
Darian, you're such a trouble-maker! :roll: :lol: Nevertheless, this question seems much easier than the last one. For MY applications, it boils down to, how can a bare hook be considered a fly?

dtp916
10-27-2006, 05:39 PM
As far as fly tying, one is not making a bead. You can attach the bead or peg it or whatever. Technically it's not a fly because it was not constructed, it was attached to a hook. Think about the difference of constructed and attached.

I've never fished beads, but they appear to be very effective in catching steelhead and trout. I've never had an opportunity to fish beads, and then when I fish glo bugs, I seem to do just so-so. If beads are going to catch more fish, then tell me the rig and I'll cast it.

Obviously, if you attach more materials or if your fishing an "enchanted wooly bugger" its totally a fly. There's little room for debate on the wooly bugger with a bead because its a FLY and a bead :-k . We all agree the WB is a fly, right? So if a bead is attached then it shouldn't matter. Still a wooly bugger/ESL.

single bead = no fly :crybaby: :twisted:
bead + wooly bugger = fly 8)

my opinion = fish whatever you want to as long as your not breaking the law (i.e FFO doesn't qualify beads) 8) 8) 8) and if you're casting a panther martin on a fly rod, no thats not a fly or fly fishing.

alaskanfish
10-27-2006, 05:51 PM
Hairstacker,

I agree, a bare hook is not a fly. And a pegged bead above a bare hook is not a fly. However it may be used for fly-fishing (technique instead of tackle), of course depending on your definition of fly fishing (see other forum). That being said, one of the more effective sockeye salmon flies, particularly in clear water, is a hook with only a few strands of flashabou applied...less is better!

But, thinking a bit outside the fly box, would you consider a tuber a fly? if so, why not a bead? If not, why? I haven't seen anyone fishing a bare tube above a hook... what about a painted bead?

Darian,

:idea: You may be onto something with the bead swap! :wink: Seriously, there is quite an art to painting beads for fooling the discerning fish. A person fishing a stock bead may not do so well, where a person who fishes a painted bead that "matches the hatch", if you will, will be way more effective. Just like tying, there are many methods and materials to painting beads. The hardest part for me was perusing and asking for help in the finger nail polish section of the local grocery store :oops: Painting, however is much more than simply brushing on nail polish, there is also spray paint, liquid latex, etc. Hmmmm a bead swap....


So, I suppose that makes me a bit unstable and undecided... I agree that a pegged bead does not constitute a fly, however I could be convinced that a painted bead does. Certainly a bead that is attached to the hook through tying or melting qualifies in my mind, likewise, a sliding bead on the leader above a hook with materials applied(like the Enfield Shad Fly).

Nevertheless, I didn't mean to go OT... simply expressing the legal definition of a "fly" according to Alaska regulation.

Darian
10-27-2006, 06:19 PM
Wow!!!! Shopping in a store for finger nail polish in Alaska is a testament to real fortitude (cojones). :shock: :shock: :lol: :lol:

A painted, metal bead slid down a leader to a fly would be no different than a glass, plastic or cork bead, to me. Still is a fly. 8) 8)

The more I think about it the more I realize that the method's used to create flies (in the traditional sense) has been changed by advancments/developments in glues and synthetic materials. Nearly everything has changed with the exception of using thread to attach "things" to a hook and the hook itself. The amount/volume of materials isn't really pertinent. 8) 8) So, for the purposes of a generic definition, is it acceptable to say that a fly is something contructed by use of thread to attach materials to a hook :?: :?: :?:

Matt Frey
10-27-2006, 06:41 PM
Darian
I totally agree. If you use thread ... then its a fly. Gluing something plastic to a hook doesnt count in my book.

sculpin
10-27-2006, 08:58 PM
I'm gonna say a bead isn't a fly and also if it's legal I could care less if someone uses one. Also if the fishing is tough and a bead is all thats working I would have no problem using one myself. If a bead is used as the head for a tied fly I think it's a fly. Otherwise all beadhead, cone head ,ect patterns aren't flies either. If thats the case I'm not a flyfisherman and never will be. ](*,)

Mark

PaulC
10-27-2006, 09:59 PM
I'll chip in my 2 cents I guess. I consider a painted bead closer to a fly than a store bought lure. Some paint beads and give them every bit of detail as a fly with their coatings, etc.
That level of effort isn't much different than cutting a bunch of tied on glow bug yarn. When's the last time we've seen a glow bug swap?

You can't fish beads on the Russian in AK as they are an artificial lure.
At least that is what I was told.
Whether we define them as a "fly" or not is IMHO splitting hairs.

I would love to see a similar reg in place limiting the distance pegged to 1" or less from the hook tie in point. It would be nice to see a similar reg limiting the leader length of guys swinging. At a certain length, it is pretty much flossing.
How our understaffed DF&G would enforce that....good luck.

I consider the use of beads as fly fishing in general as one has the same nuances of provided a dead drift, adjusting depth, etc. Its not live bait and not a super duper.

This is a bit off topic, but the one thing that has always tripped me out about beadfishing in general is the productivity reduction as a function of the bead's proximity to the hook. Why is that? It is totally repeatable.
Not getting hooked up, look at the bead. Its next to the hook. Move up to .5 inches, repeg and bam...fish on.
Why the reduction in strikes? Aerodynamics or are the fish really that picky and see the hook?
Anyone else notice this and have any thoughts?

One technique I've been using to reduce this problematic behavior is tying a nailknot with a separate piece of mono below the bead to provide a stop.

-Paul

PaulC
10-27-2006, 10:18 PM
Hey Darian,
A friend nailed a bunch of perch with a cigarette butt on the hook? If he tied it on with thread would it be a fly? :lol:

I see what you're getting at. The thread thing.....
Some of the surf patterns are very little thread and more adhesive than anything nowadays. Maybe just the definition of using ones hands to create the object you're throwing?
But how would that differentiate a plug from a fly?
-Paul

Flyjunkie
10-27-2006, 11:40 PM
The California DFG classifies a Fly as "An Artificial Lure constructed using the methods Know as Fly Tying" (or something Close to that)

SOOOOO a Bead Pegged on the Leader above a Bare Hook ISN'T A FLY....

Whats soo Bloody Hard for a number of Folks to understand about that???

The Current issue of American Angler has a very Good "Rant" in it regarding the use of Pegged Beads in Alaska... The Gent makes some Great calls regarding this Practice.. in all honesty I gotta agree with him...

Bottom Line is this (In My Humble opinion): When one decides to Peg a Plastic Bead above a Bare Hook, even if it's on a tapered leader attached to a Fly Line, being presented with a Fly rod & reel, That person is No Longer FLYFISHING ( Remember the Pegged Bead ISN'T A FLY) They are Merely using the Fly rod as a Vehicle to present an Artificial Bait...

I Understand the Limitations of Flyfishing..which are basically One's Own abilities to Present a FLY in a fashion that will get a fish to grab it...

as was stated before.. if there's No thread involved and it wasn't Tyed.. It Ain't a FLY.... period...

DEAN ~~~ 8) 8)

Darian
10-28-2006, 01:58 AM
Paul,.... Interesting about the reduction in productivity due to proximity of the beads to the hook.... :? :? The only thing I can think of is that Salmon/Steelhead aren't taking the beads at all.... :? :? of course, if the fish is fairly hooked, it isn't snagging. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense. :? :? Oh well....

As in the other discussion, it's difficult to keep this aimed at the original question dealing with what constitutes (construction/design) a fly :?: :?: Too easy to mix the two subjects of fly fishing and fly tying. :) :)

Exploring what constitutes a bead may or may not clarify this subject somewhat. A bead may be made of solid materials such as Plastic, metal and/or glass. 8) Also, beads may be formed from colored epoxy, UV Knot Sense or hot wax. 8) With few exceptions, a bead is, in fact, made from synthetic material.... So are lures and most flies nowadays. Attaching a bead may be accomplished thru tying it on with thread or by gluing or melting it to the hook shank. The same way a fly is "tied". :? :? Not sure whether this is going anywhere productive.... :? :? Lures/plugs are made the same way and using the same materials, as well.

The difficulty in attempting to deal with this subject is the same as an old saying, after I had all of the answers, they changed the questions. :lol: :lol: After all of this, I can't specifically define what is a fly but I know one when I see it. 8) 8) 8) For me, beads (fished by themselves) ain't it. 8) 8) 8)

Darian
10-28-2006, 05:32 PM
In my prior post, I forgot to address whether anything tied on a tube is a fly. Altho, our discussion only included tying materials to a hook, it isn't a stretch to apply the same "....thread...." reasoning to support a tube as a fly. 8) 8) SOoooo, IMHO and for the purposes of this discussion, I believe materials tied to a tube by a thread(s) is a fly. 8) 8) 8)

The more I think about the info exchanged in this pot and the other, recent discussion, the more I believe that there is a necessity in being more specific in defining things, such as flies. 8) 8) If there's no basis (description/definition, etc.) for identifying something (e.g. a fly vs lure or anything), communicating is made more difficult than necessary to promote understanding. In that respect, I guess I'm a traditionalist.

I do believe in the principal of to each his/her own and do not believe that being specific conflicts with anyones need to be general and all inclusive. 8) 8)

steve sullivan
10-29-2006, 02:08 AM
This is a bit off topic, but the one thing that has always tripped me out about beadfishing in general is the productivity reduction as a function of the bead's proximity to the hook. Why is that? It is totally repeatable.
Not getting hooked up, look at the bead. Its next to the hook. Move up to .5 inches, repeg and bam...fish on.
Why the reduction in strikes? Aerodynamics or are the fish really that picky and see the hook?
Anyone else notice this and have any thoughts?

One technique I've been using to reduce this problematic behavior is tying a nailknot with a separate piece of mono below the bead to provide a stop.

-Paul

I honestly do not know what it is???

Hairstacker
11-01-2006, 04:45 AM
Dean, I just got in the mail my current issue of American Angler magazine and read that "rant" you mentioned. I particularly found interesting his take on the hit on a beaded fly. Basically, if I understood him correctly, he asserts that the fish is hitting the bead and ends up being snagged by the hook. Granted the fish ends up hooked in the mouth the majority of the time but. . . .

Darian
11-01-2006, 11:57 AM
Hmmmm,.... Like Mike, I found "Peg this!" an interesting/timely read. 8) This rant makes no real effort to distinguish between what is a fly and fly fishing. However, it does impart the flavor of a rant and, I guess, that serves the purposes of initiating a discussion.

For our purposes, I found it interesting that the author believes that a bead attached to a hook is a fly but, when pegged up the leader, it's not. :? :? In this rant, the author, apparently feels that the issue is the proximity of the bead(s) to the hook is the determining factor. 8) 8) IMHO, neither is a fly.

In a similar article written in Salmon/Trout/Steelheader, the author was much stronger in his opinion that any bead was not a fly and, therefore, not fly fishing. His article called the practice, as it's done here, "....lining...." 8)

In both articles the flavor of the writing sounds as though the major objection is that the practice is that it is effective. :? Not sure what the latest article adds to this discussion..... (but may add to the other thread) 8) 8)

Mike O
11-01-2006, 01:04 PM
If you must use thread to make a FLY, then how do the hot glue eggs fit in? Or what about a glow bug, bought from Michael's craft section, and superglued onto the hook? How about one of those gummy fish that people use in the salt, or for S-Bass? Or the different Chernobyl-style preformed bodies that basically just require a slit in the foam, superglued to the hook, with legs punched through the foam with a needle, an superglued in place.

For those who say that the entire fly must be hand made, what about a San Juan Worm? Do you make your own chenille, and then just tie it to the hook with thread?

I think that fly tying has advanced to the point where the difference between lures and flies is very muddled. Manufacturing of materials means that most flies could not be made without synthetics, inlcuding NYLON thread.

My problem with beads is how the fish is hooked. If it is hooked on the inside of the mouth, it is hooked. If the hook goes outside in, then it is foul-hooked and should be released.

If the majority of the fish you are getting are foul-hooked, then you need to switch methods, as a matter of Fair Chase, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE A GUIDE, who targets far more fish. After all, regardless of who is paying, ethics are ethics. And obviously there is a booming market for guides, as evidenced by the rates charged, and the numbers of boats on the rivers, and the number of ads in the mags.

Just my 2 pennies.

Hairstacker
11-01-2006, 02:18 PM
Maodiver, I think the difference between flies and lures is only as muddied as we individually want to make it. For me, it's fairly cut and dried since fly tying ALWAYS involves the use of thread; thus, synthetics are fine but no hot-glued eggs, no super-glued craft balls from Michaels, and no gummy minnows. For me, fly TYING always starts with the act of tying onto the hook with thread. To each his own, of course. :)

Lee Haskin
11-02-2006, 01:48 PM
Certainly there is a lot of personal opinion here, but when you really break it down it quite simple. Anything that can be cast with a fly rod and fly line can be considered a fly. (The line casts the "thing", where in conventional fishing the "thing" pulls the line.)

Of course, there might be specific local, IGFA, rules that further define the above definition.

Personally, I have a very narrow opinion about what a fly is and what fly fishing is FOR ME. However, this has nothing to do with the general catagory of fly fishing and flies. When I was younger, I was more interested in catching fish-any way I could. Now I am only interested in spending my time fly fishing is very specific ways and places. It is the specific experience I am looking for. I know that if I fish "my way" I might not catch many fish, or any at all; and if I fished another way I might catch many fish. Putting fish in the net just isn't as important as fishing exactly the way I want to fish! Funny how we change as we get older.

I remember my Dad's old box of "flies", back in the 50's, and it contained a whole bunch of small spinner flies, micro Super Dupers, Flatfish, etc. etc., along with more traditional flies. Trust me, they were deady, and they were cast just like a "traditional fly". :shock:

Note: Many of the old fly tying and fly fishing books contained spinner flies.

Usually the narrow view of flies and fly fishing coming from personal opinion which might be interesting to discuss, but I suggest that those opinions should not be thought of as "pure" or "better" than another view. When it divides, or polarizes people THAT is when I get a little cranky. :wink:

Sorry for the long post.

$.02
Lee Haskin

Darian
11-02-2006, 06:26 PM
Hi Lee,.... I'm not sure I agree that anything cast by a fly rod/line is a fly. Fly fishing is another/separate subject area, to me. IMHO, the equipment used to cast a lure/fly doesn't determine what is a fly. Super Doopers/small Colorado Spinners were something that I cast on spinning and fly rods during my youth but even then I didn't consider them to be a fly. I've attached spinner blades to the rear of deer hair bug patterns and consider those to be flies as, I have already stated, the materials are attached the hook using thread. All of these items and more appeared in my tackle boxes/vests, etc., at one time or another.

I have chosen, for purely personal reasons, to define a fly specifically. 8) 8) My definition is simple and easily defended. That's all I need. That doesn't mean that my opinion has more validity than any others, here. Also, I have re-read all of the posts and there doesn't seem to be anyone adopting a superior attitude.... Strong opinions, yes. All of that is what makes this discussion (and the other one) interesting and a lot of fun for me. 8) 8) 8)

Lee Haskin
11-03-2006, 12:08 PM
Hi Darian,

I certainly have enjoyed the comments made in this thread, and did not mean to imply that this discussion was over the top and polarizing. However, I have seen this type of discussion taken to extremes, at other times, and I found myself sorry I participated.

Some of the most popular saltwater "fly" patterns today, do not include thread. They are constructed or built with synthetics and adhesives. The fly fishing community has adopted these patterns as flies, for better or worse, yet from a traditional, esthetic point of view, they are found wanting. (...again, that is my opinion).

There seems to be a shift away from traditional tying methods as people try to create new patterns that catch fish. For most people, catching fish IS the bottom line.
Fortunately, there is no "right" or "wrong" answer...just opinions.

Thanks again for your insightful comments.

Cheers,
Lee

Mike O
11-03-2006, 12:22 PM
not to be contrary :lol: (anyone who knows me knows that contrariness part and parcel of me), but by your standard, a hot glue egg with a thread base, to keep it from spinning on the hook, or a bead that has a stopper of thread on the hook would be a "fly". Kinda arbitrary, no?

Lee Haskin
11-03-2006, 01:10 PM
I suppose some would consider beads, and bead systems, flies. They are sold in fly shops, and fly fishing mail order catalogs. They are fished like other types of flies.

I respect the views of other opinions, and therefore don't want to make a legalistic value judgements on those views.

I choose not to "draw a line in the sand".

The importance of my views are strong, and well defined, and lay deep within, but I would consider them no value to others.
They give me joy and satisifaction from fly fishing.

Some have suggested (rather strongly, I might add) that my fly patterns are not flies simply because they contain synthetics. I respect those that believe only natural materials should be used in fly tying, they make good points. I would never argue against their view.

Lee

Hairstacker
11-03-2006, 01:40 PM
maodriver, not to be contrary either :lol: , but the standard I apply to myself (only!) also requires that the thread must "strap in" one or more materials, even if it's just, say, the tail on a balsa wood popper or crease fly.

Haven't made up my mind about tube flies -- I'll probably allow myself an exception for those, as they just seem like flies to me for some reason, even though they are not fixed to the hook :D

Darian
11-03-2006, 04:20 PM
Hi Lee,.... I find nothing to disagree with and much to respect in your comments.... 8) 8) 8)

moadiver,.... While I respect your question/ststement, I'm wondering why it matters whether my definition is arbitrary or all incusive or not :?: :?: :?: As I've explained previously, it was adopted purely for the purpose of being able to hold a discussion and understand what other participants are talking about with some degree of certainty. 8) 8)

Mike O
11-07-2006, 02:56 PM
just was trying to understand your position, wasn't trying to make you feel persecuted. I just was interested in your thought process. I respect anyone who knows what they stand for. Thanks for explaining.