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Katz
10-26-2006, 06:44 PM
Question for the Delta Hunters.

When you are out looking for fish do you place much focus on spotting fish on the Sonar? I have had people say that they will run around looking for fish on the fish finder and then concentrate on where they find "marks". Like Darian seeing them on his last outing.

Or is it more about the depth, tide, cover, etc, etc. Meaning you find the suspicios locations and then Fish 'em to see who's home?

Thanks for the thoughts :)

Kraig

JerryInLodi
10-26-2006, 08:15 PM
Kraig, I use my sonar more for depth and bottom make up rather than fish but on occasion have spotted fish. Usually I'm on a dead drift, no trolling motor, no engine, no NOISE in the boat. I'll see a definite fish shaped hump and cast to it and on occasion even get the take.

I bought a Bottomline sidefinder Buddy 4200. Worst investment I've ever made. It read fish even when it was out of the water! Totally useless. My brother-in-law has the old Buddy II. It seems much more reliable than the piece of junk I bought at twice the price.

WinterrunRon
10-29-2006, 03:45 AM
Katz,

I have more years experience chasing stripers with conventional gear from my bass boat than I do with a fly rod.

Although a book could be written about the where and how to locate stripers in the Delta, tides have more to do with positioning the fish than anything.

For the depths fished with a fly rod, electronics are not very useful for FINDING stripers but invaluable for locating the structure stripers find and use to 1) ambush their prey and 2) travel. Once you find the spots they like, you can revisit these spots time and time again. When you learn, through experience, the times/tides the stripers are likely to be there, your apt to be more successful year after year.

On the other hand, I almost always use my electronics to locate schools of fish in deeper water (8-35ft) and use a technique called "spooning" or "jigging" with conventional gear to catch impressive numbers of stripers.

Now before you bash me for mentioning conventional gear, I want you to know two things:

1) I consider myself a fisherman, not a flyfisherman (I enjoy many different techniques) and I've been fishing with casting and spinning gear for stripers, steelhead, bass, shad and salmon much longer than I have with fly gear.

2) I don't know too many flyfishermen (one word?) that can say they've caught over 100 stripers (not a typo, that's 100+) 6lbs or better in a continuous 5 hour afternoon!

If you want to go out some time, I'd be glad to take you. I won't leave steelheading to pursue them, but when the large schools start to show up (mid-November/December) and the tides are favorable (tide charts are helpful to try and predict), I'm there!

All this is my personal opinion from personal experience having learned it over the years, not what I've heard... and my two cents worth.

I apologize for the long reply, you're probably sorry you asked.

Ron

WinterrunRon
10-29-2006, 04:01 AM
Katz,

Here's a few photos I had saved...

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k63/WinterrunRon/delta2.jpg

9 Years old and landing his own!

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k63/WinterrunRon/Picture024.jpg

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k63/WinterrunRon/PC210021.jpg

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k63/WinterrunRon/PC130018.jpg
I caught over 100 of these this day (most were 6-8lbs and it's likely not to happen again in my lifetime, so I consider myself very lucky) and kept two.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k63/WinterrunRon/PA250004.jpg
Every now and again, the electronics lie about it being a striper!

10-29-2006, 10:36 AM
Katz,

Like everything else in this World, there are practical matters to consider. Can you afford to burn up $50 worth of gas looking for Stripers only to snag all your expensive flies on weeds? Or, do you want to settle down to a few productive spots that have a good current during tide change? I pick a spot where I can anchor and swing a fly without snagging.

If you notice the time of day in my Avatar it was getting dark. What I do is try to align the best current for a specific location with the exact time that darkness falls onto the Delta. (Or daylight if I get out there that early in the morning?) There is about a 4 hours difference for this optimum time depending on which end of the Delta I compute. I use software at home before going out there. Usually, during late November and early December. Sugar Barge decorates an old wood cabin cruiser with Christmas lights during that time of the year.

There is a 4-˝ hour difference between Three Mile Slough (Sacramento River) and Grant Line Drawbridge. That gives quite a wide time span of optimum fishing at different locations. The small shaker stripers seem to be willing to bite at anytime, and are ferrous little fighters on a 6 weight fly rod. A great pass time while waiting for the big bite to turn on.

There are probably thousands of different methods used out there that catch Stripers. They are aggressive fish that will chase just about anything. Not much of a method challenge in my book.

JerryInLodi
10-29-2006, 12:42 PM
WinterrunRon, what a great day that must have been, 100 6 pound fish. I've done that with trout but never with a fish that really pulls. Wondering, what year was that? It must have been a great class year for the fish to have schools of that size.

As far as type of gear, isn't that a personal thing? As long as the resource is protected and the gear is gentle on the fish, does it really matter whether it was a rapala, spoon or fly? Only to the guy holding the rod with the fish on!

Congratulations on what must have been a great day!

WinterrunRon
10-29-2006, 02:28 PM
Jerry,

I believe the year was 2003 or 2004. I was over a school of fish numbering in the thousands that spanned over 1/2 mile (the birds were working this large an area) and didn't move much for the entire afternoon, which, in my experience, is unusual.

What was really interesting, however, after 30 or so fish, I decided to try several other methods/setups to catch them. Not a single bite. ONLY a 2 ounce spoon worked and when I went back to it, fish on before it hit the bottom just about every time.

I agree. Method and gear is very much a personal thing. I can't imagine missing out on the once in a lifetime opportunity like the one I had because I was too committed to one method or another. Versatility is the key to success (unless you're exceptionlly skilled at one method, which I am not!).

BTW, I know you guide, but if you ever want to take the day off to be the passenger/client, I'll let you know when I'm going and if you want to hop in my boat, we'll combine heads and get at 'em!

Ron

JerryInLodi
10-29-2006, 04:10 PM
WinterrunRon, I'm ON! I'll buy gas and lunch! I have the last Saturday and Sunday open in November!

If it was 2003, those fish are now about 28 inches long and eleven pounds, if 2004 the fish would now be about 26 inches long and about nine pounds.

As to versatility, while no longer a spin fisherman, I frequently shook my head at some of the things I saw while fishing local lakes. I remember so many times while sitting out in my float tube fly fishing, watching a guy with a fly and bubble pull in fish after fish while the person next to him sat stolidly by, powerbait and sinker fishing forty feet deep while the fish were in the first two feet of water, and the powerbaiter grumbling at both the spinfisher and me for catching fish rather than catching a clue and asking if we could lend him a fly or help him out.

Things like that go on constantly. Some people just fish, "the way their daddy did," and never seem to want to change or learn.

10-29-2006, 05:16 PM
Kraig, Jerry, and Ron,

The Striper Fest is next weekend, so I used my computations to find an optimum fishing spot located close to Sugar Barge on the evening of the 4th.

Using the Tide and Current Prediction URL at my Web Site for False River:

High Tide will be at 15:06 (3:06 PM)
Sunset at 17:04 (5:04 PM)
Low Tide 22:17 (10:17 PM)
Those figures are for where the Ferry Boat crosses False River.

The Tide will drop about 3 feet, so there will be plenty of current at Sunset. It should really start flowing at 6:00 PM in the Inlet to Franks track located at (38 02.893, -121 37.287 NAD27) I usually anchor and fish the slough that heads to the right.

It’s only 1.3 mile from the Gate located at (38 01.830, -121 36.788 NAD27) near Sugar Barge to the Inlet. With no GPS the Magnetic Bearing to the Inlet should be 324.3 degrees, and of course, the return trip in the dark to the Gate would be 144.3 Magnetic. That heading has plenty of snags, so take it slow and good luck.

It will take a while for those figures to line up for that spot again.

Use good judgment:

G.I.S. maps do not carry legal authority to determine a boundary or the location of fixed works. Navigate at your own risk using your own charts.

andanb
10-29-2006, 06:34 PM
I have tried to use electronics (the buddy 4200) to find fish without success. I usually catch fish when looking for types of structure that fish might use to ambush prey as pointed out earlier, and when tides are favorable to drift by that structure as also indicated earlier. But...I find the electronics invaluable in monitoring the water temprature. The fish seem to key on this type of structure especially later in the winter when the temprature drops to around 50 degrees. It seems easier to find fish where you find "warmer" water as the temp drops too much. I'm not an expert these are just some of my observations.

WinterrunRon
10-29-2006, 06:52 PM
Jerry,

Gas and lunch? Who in their right mind could pass up such a generous offer?

I'm going to check with my personnel director (awesome wife of 19 years) and see if I can't pencil us in for one of those days. I have less flexibility on the weekends but with enough notice, I should be able to swing it. The tides aren't anything to shout about those days but I'm certain we can put our heads together and come up with a game plan likely to produce some catching for us. Stand by... and I'll let you know soon... but pencil it in!

Black Sheep,

Thanks for the heads up.

My handheld GPS is in some remote area of Idaho Elk Hunting with my friend for 12 days so I'm not sure which inlet of Frank's Track your referring to, but I'll look it up when it gets back. I'm scheduled to return from the Trinity on Saturday morning (don't like fishing the weekends on the river) so I won't be able to participate in what promises to be a good outing for you but let us know how you do!

Good luck,

Ron

JerryInLodi
10-29-2006, 07:17 PM
Black Sheep, are you fishing at night? You're talking about sunset and evening tides? The party starts at 1600?

Ron, holding my breath, waiting for your conference results with the other half!

Katz
10-29-2006, 07:38 PM
WinterrunRon and Jerry

I will see Jerry's offer of the gas and food ( or happily join the two of you)

This feels a bit like e-bay, when does the bidding officially end? :lol:

My son is now 8, daughter 6. Two Octobers ago, I was out with a friend and the two kids (6 and 4 then) on a perfect delta afternoon. My friend and I were throwing flies and artificials.

My son was soaking a minnow on the bottom and right as the tide changed he was into a 10# striper. An absolute joy to watch him fight that fish :) . I would love to watch that again and again and I think spoons, jigs etc are more realistic. 8)

I am able to get out on Wed's (with the approval of MY personnel director - awesome wife of 11 years) :D

Let me know if there are any dates that might work for you.

Kraig

JerryInLodi
10-29-2006, 08:01 PM
Katz, one of the most frustrating things I've seen is a father so wrapped up in fly fishing that he's bought everything in miniature for his seven year old and expects him to fish right along side as if he was his best friend.

I think that your approach of first getting the kids fishing, bait, spinning rod, whatever is EASY and no pressure is the best approach. And, if after twenty minutes, they'd rather go poke bugs with sticks, let them! Forcing our kids to be a miniature of ourselves is not the right way to approach fly fishing.

I've met a few kids as young as 12 that are successful fly fishers and understand the game but that's rare. Most 12 year olds are way too curious about too many things all at once to become so focused on the niceties of fly fishing not to mention the eye hand coordination required.

One thing that I've found that younger kids do enjoy though is fly tying, as long as you don't set down hard and fast rules. They come up with the ugliest hairiest bugs ever conceived!

Katz
10-29-2006, 08:26 PM
Sooo true Jerry!

My kids will wrap feathers to hooks for hrs, but fish for only minutes.

I am planning to find some good bluegill spots in the delta in the spring where even some of the things they tie will entice a strike :)

My son can cast a spinning rod or a zebco type rod pretty well right now. We will stick with that for now unless the conditions are perfect.

At this point I just want to keep them interested enought that they are still willing to come with me! :wink:

Kraig

10-29-2006, 09:35 PM
Ron,

Here is a map with a red “X” showing the Inlet. The Gate near Sugar Barge is between the words “Piper” and “Slough.” A heading of 360 degrees magnetic from the Gate is pretty good, but the Inlet is at 324 degrees magnetic and is by far the best. A few of the snags are marked on the map, but there are quite a few more than that.

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=38.04885&lon=-121.62325&datum=nad27&u=3&layer=DRG25&size=l&s=100

Jerry,

Yes, I know the current and sunset coincides with the party. Maybe someone will want to slip away and hook a Striper? :D

JerryInLodi
10-29-2006, 10:11 PM
Black Sheep, don't forget, we're not in Daylight Savings Time anymore. You'll be blind casting in the dark. Haven't looked at the moon's schedule but it should be pretty close to a full moon though.

Tides are great predictors but when you're out on the water for ten to eleven hours and working from one direction to the next, you don't necessarily have the luxury of fishing every location at it's optimum tide. What I do is pick out a general route and take the water as it comes. If one of my honey holes is flowing too swiftly it just gets passed by in favor of a big flat where the current is not so severe. If a flat is absolutely flat I may move on after a few casts to a place where the beginnings of a current are starting to show and the fish can line up.

Eleven hours is a long day and during that time you'll face almost two complete tidal cycles.

10-29-2006, 11:13 PM
Jerry,

The full moon rises at 16:24 on the 4th, and I have the online software set for (automatic daylight saving correction) This is the way the events are lined up:

15:06 High Tide
16:24 Moonrise
17:04 Sunset
22:17 Low Tide

Depending on how strong the wind is that day, the current should be moving pretty good at 3-˝ to 4 hours after a slack Tide. On Thursday of this week the sunset should be 3 hours after high tide, on Friday the sunset should be 2-˝ after high tide, and on Saturday the sunset should be 2 hours after high tide. As you can see, we would have to fish ˝ hour later each night. However, with the full moon also rising about ˝ hour later each night there should be plenty of moon light to cast our flies, because the sunset only advances a few minutes each day.

The events only line up like this occasionally, and I find it amazing that it happened for the Striper Fest. Plus, only 1.3 miles away at the Inlet.

WinterrunRon
10-30-2006, 01:03 AM
Katz,

Nice story about your son! Sounds like you enjoy fatherhood as much as I do.

BTW, my ebay name is veryglad2bdad and bidding has ended on the Wednesday trip. Congratulations, your the winner!

When the fish are in the Delta in good numbers, I'll invite you out on a Wednesday. Most likely, mid November on.

It will be no secret when they arrive.

Ron

Katz
10-30-2006, 12:23 PM
I'm ready!

I'll bring lots of pic of the kids!

Just got back from a Swim Meet in Reno this weekend. It is soo cool to see things "come together" for the kids :)

My son, 8, was the #2 high point for all the 8-U boys at the meet. Swam great. Lot of ribbons! =D>

My daughter,6, has never been too competitive, but over the last few months she has just gotten better and better. She did a 25 yard breastroke race yesterday and about 1/2 way through the race looked to her right at the girl that was ahead of her and you could just see her turn on the jets to catch and just pass the other swimmer. \:D/

Amazing how cool it is to be a parent!

SORRY FOR THE MUSHY MESSAGE :D

I know that wasn't about fishing, but there was a lot of water involved and we walked over the Truckee in downtown Reno and watched a 15" rainbow eating nymphs below the Virginia bridge. (there - I fit in a fishing report)

Kraig

WinterrunRon
10-30-2006, 01:02 PM
Whew... it barely qualified there at the end. Nice save! :)

ernest v
10-30-2006, 04:03 PM
What is the setup for spoon and jig fishing for delta stripers ?

Rod,line,lures(what you use) I havnt tried the spoon's but the Spro Bucktail jigs work for me.

please help shorten the learning curve with these techniques. I use conventional as well as flygear.

I fish the delta 3-6 times a week.

thanks
ernest v

10-30-2006, 11:43 PM
ernest v,

The guides are more knowledgeable about this stuff than I am, but basically, spooning for Stripers only works when they are bunched up together. Stripers are usually spread out in the Delta, so we need to cover a lot of water to find fish. I troll a Rebel Wild Thing at night.

If you are fishing the Delta 3-6 times a week you must be retired like I am? Are you interest in doing some evening fly fishing for Stripers? I can’t find anyone crazy enough to fish at night, so I usually go alone. :(

paulegan81
11-01-2006, 11:08 PM
When I take my boy (12) or my brothers boy (9) I have them cast smal rapalas of the back 2-21/2 inches silver/blue and black/gold has worked great for Lmb and stripers both......My boy told me his best day was the last time he went with me and he only caught one fish.... the rest of the day he playied his game boy and we just talked in betwene me landing fish....... I was woried he didn't have a good time until we got home and talked about it
Paul.......