Bead vs. Fly fishing?

[alaskanfish]

Fishing beads is a very effective way of catching fish during the spawn. Many, however consider this to be something other than fly fishing. What are your thoughts? For those who do not consider beads to be fly fishing, how do you feel about nymphs?

[Hairstacker]

Ok, I'll stick my hand out to be slapped. :lol: I assume by "bead fishing," you're referring to the practice of fishing a colored plastic bead attached just above a bare hook at the end of the tippet.

Well, for me, fly fishing involves fishing with a "fly," not just a bare hook at the end of the tippet. So I don't consider "bead fishing" to be fly fishing, since there appears to be no fly in this equation. Using similar reasoning, I do think fishing nymphs falls within the realm of fly fishing, since they are dressed on a hook. BUT, let me hasten to add: to each his/her own, who am I to define another's concept of fun? I only responded because you asked. :)

[alaskanfish]

Thanks for your reply. I agree. Though not necessarily a purist, I am more into style, presentation and really the take. The terminal end of the line really doesn't matter to me (to some extent).

I don't know if you can really classify bead fishing per se... I use a fly rod, cast to specificly sighted fish. I fish it like a nymph, try to match the "hatch", as well as produce a perfect presentation and so on...

[Dustin Revel]

to me fly fishing is just a technique to present something to a fish. what that something is is up to the fisherman.
the way I stake beads is no more adverse affest on the fish than fishing a tube fly. i post the bead about a half an inch above the hook, and I have never hooked a fish while using a bead outside the mouth.
Dusty

[Hairstacker]

Great point about all the traditional elements of fly fishing involved in the "bead" approach.

I think everyone has to define for themselves how they want to approach the sport. As a kid, I learned how to finesse bass on plastic worms, high-stick trout in pocket water with nightcrawlers, vertical-jig for crappies, spoon for northern pike, etc. I have since preferred to distinguish and follow a certain, perhaps personal, concept of what I consider "fly fishing." Otherwise, what truly distinguishes fly fishing from these other approaches? In other words, rather than a bead, perhaps attaching a small spinner to the end of the tippet might be even more effective. . . . I guess we all need to draw our own lines somewhere. Anyways, as I always say and will say again, to each his/her very own.

Also, and this is perhaps getting a little bit away from your poll question, but I also particularly enjoy catching fish on flies I have tied (even better if I've had a hand in their design!), so the fly tying element is also a big part of the what "fly fishing" is TO ME. :wink:

[alaskanfish]

Hairstacker,

We sing off the same sheet of music. I also enjoy tying and am blessed when I hook up with a new creation.

I also hand paint the beads to "match the hatch".

Dustin,

I peg at 2" and can also say that I have never hooked a trout outside the mouth and no deeper than the jaw.

I understand that more than 2" can cause either foul hooking or gilling.

Bottom line for me: nothing like the adrenaline and excitement of a fish at the end of the line!

[chicoflyguy]

no beads or bobbers

[jbird]

If you are casting a flyrod, using a flyreel and flyline, you are flyfishing (this is only my opinion) Flyfishing is a way of presenting your offering, not necessarily what you are offering. If you are casting a fly with a bobber and spinning rod, are you flyfishing? I'd say no. The problem I see is folks who keep their mind tightly in a traditional flyfishing box, are the folks who become angry or condecending toward an angler using a different or innovative aproach. It falls perfectly in line with the indicator argument. As you know, there is a large percentage of people who dislike the use of indicators or are embarrassed of the times they had to resort to using one. This is a personal handicap for those individuals.

Flyfishing is arguably the pinacle in techniques of puting a hook in a fish's mouth. So naturally some of the folks the sport attracts think they are the pinacle of the human race. These are the folks that love to tell you the real definition of flyfishing.

Do you have a flyrod, flyreel and flyline? youre flyfishin dear boy!!! use your imagination, maybe you can pioneer a new method in this wonderful sport. Ya just gotta think outside the box sometimes.

If I came to alaska and the guide said "we're flyfishing with beads and indicators today" I'd say "Gideeup Cap'n" :D

Jay

[Darian]

OK guys,.... In California, the DFG regs define a fly as "Any fly constrructed by the method known as fly tying." 8) Thus, a bead is not, legally, a fly. Note that a bead may be incorporated into a fly design but by itself is not a fly. Therefore, in California, use of a bead or beads (whether used on a fly rod or drift gear) is not fly fishing. Also, a fly may be an artificial lure but a bead may not be a fly according to the regs. (see sections 1.08 and 1.11 of Chapt 1. GENERAL PROVISIONS AND DEFINITIONS).

Having cited that, I could care less whether using beads is fly fishing or not as long as they're not used in the classic sense of snagging. To Dustin, I say, you may not have ever hooked a fish outside of the mouth using beads in your young life, so far. But, believe me, fish long enough and any fly/lure will hook a fish outside of the mouth. :? :? :? The real issues are (1) what do you do when you see that your fish is not legally hooked :?: :?: And, (2) How many fish are hooked using beads outside the mouth during each trip made :?: :?:

For me, If I have a fish hooked outside the mouth, I attempt to break it off rather than bring it all the way in, tire it out and release it. Second, if I'm hooking a bunch of fish outside the mouth (no matter what my intent) I change my rig or my tactics to reduce/eliminate that occurance. 8) 8) I realize that when fishing over a bunch of closely packed Salmon, you're gonna inadvertantly snag a few. But that (snagging) shouldn't be your primary purpose there.

I, also, believe in "to each his own." 8) 8) 8)

[Dustin Revel]

yeah i realize that if a continue to use beads I am bound to hook a fish outside the mouth eventually just as with any other fly or non-fly presented with fly gear :lol:

[David Lee]

A bead is NOT a fly - same with a Rapala , a plastic worm , or a small HouseCat (all of which I can cast on a flyrod , though I haven't yet tried to toss the Cat ....) .

Will you go to hell for using a plastic bead (or gummy minnow , or plastic worm) ?? Likely , no . But , having said that .... I prefer to use something I've TYED myself .

Use what ya wanna use , as long as you can live with yourself the next day . A bead , pegged or not , can be used exactly the same way that a Glo-bug or Nymph can be used .

By the way , if the bead is more than 5 feet (give or take a couple ....) away from the weight (or slinky , if you're a savage) ... then it's a SNAGGING rig - simple as that .

There you have it . :D

David :nod:

[jbird]

Excellent post darian! You are absolutely right. If the regs are flyfishing only, you must adhere to "flies only"...which means no beads. or panther martins...or dick knights..... :wink: :D

Jay

[Hairstacker]

Jay, you can't deny that fly fishing does have a long tradition to it. As a reflection of that tradition, even to this day, there are certain streams in England where you are ONLY permitted to cast a dry fly upstream to sighted fish. Given the opportunity, would I be willing to restrict myself to the rules of those streams and be happy? You bet! That's how the game is defined in those places, and I think it'd be a blast to try to succeed under those restrictions.

I wish I could explain it better but it's like a lot of activities where you set your own boundaries. Take bowling -- a lot of guys don't see an issue with sliding over the line when they release the ball. Or take golf -- some guys don't think twice about taking a 2nd free tee shot when the first one veers off into the woods. I think we all define our own lines somewhere. . . .

For my enjoyment of the sport, a definition of fly fishing has to involve more than just the mere use of a fly rod, reel and line. Otherwise, I start to lose sight of the whole point of it all. Which is why I have yet to "fly fish" with a Senko on the end of the tippet, even though I KNOW there are certain times and conditions when it would be FAR more effective than any "fly" I might employ. (Don't think I haven't felt temped! :lol: )

If my primary goal was catching lots of fish, I never would have taken up fly fishing in the first place, as I was doing great with conventional gear. So good at times, in fact, that I got bored with it one time and went out and bought my first fly rod the next day. FOR ME, the challenge and excitement that keeps me going back is catching fish on flies. I could really care less how others want to do it. By the way, I agree, anger or condescending attitudes toward others' approaches, whatever they may be (aside from snagging!), should have no place in any of this.

[Bob Laskodi]

Tye a bead to a hook with fly tying thread and it meets CA definition of a fly! AK has a similar regulation and that's exactly how they do it up there in their FFO waters! CA doesn't have any FFO waters so it's a moot point, but AK does!

[Darian]

Bob,.... Be careful about applying what's done in AK to what's being done here. Tying a bead to a hook may not be seen as "....constructed by the method known as fly tying" by law enforcement here. I sure wouldn't want to defend your position in a California court. :? :? I can see it now, "but.... judge.... I tied the bead to the hook. So, it's a fly according to the regs...." I wouldn't worry much about it, tho. :) :)

At any rate, you are correct about there being no FFO waters in CA. There is a reason that California doesn't designate CA waters as fly only. Recall that the regs say that a "fly" may be an artificial lure. By using that definition, they regs may be written using the statement, "Only artificial lures with barbless hooks may be used" for each water regulated. Flies are included in that statement. Believe it or not, printing costs money and that decision probably saved DFG some budget (as small in amount as that may be). 8) 8) 8)

IMHO, other than for the experience and for the sake of debate, legally, it doesn't matter what's done in AK. :D :lol: :lol:

[alaskanfish]

Darian,

Thanks for your post. I have reviewed regulations for many states and provinces. AK's regs are so convoluted and complex, that half the people in Alaska cannot really say "how it's done in Alaska".

That being said, to qualify for FFO waters, a bead must be permanently attached to the hook... simple as that. I have used extra long streamer hooks, heated them enough to push the eye of the hook though the eye of the bead and "permanently" attached them to the hook; thus creating a "fly". Others have used a glue gun and applied to the hook shank. As long as the bead is attached to the hook it qualifies.

A bead, pegged on the line or free sliding on the line, however is not acceptable in FFO waters.

[Darian]

Wow,.... You sure are right. A bead pegged to a leader is not a fly but one melted onto a hook shank is :? :? :? :? How do you guys live with that kind of stuff :?: :?: :?:

[jbird]

Mike

As usual, I have a hard time transferring my brain thru my keyboard :lol: My point is, I am not one to tell others how to do it. If they are within the regulations and having fun, hats off to them, even if theyre thowing a spoon on a flyrod. In everyday circumstances, I choose to flyfish with hand tied flies. As a matter of fact, I have not purchased a fly in the past 18 or so years. I much prefer to save my $ and tie them myself. I agree that fishing with your own hand tied flies adds a very special element to the sport.
I will add that I would gladly fish with beads if I booked alaskanfish and he suggested it. I would probably play around with some of my own patterns throughout the day as well.

I do not fit the flyfishing profile very well. I often feel like a clay pot in a china cabinet :lol: I am disturbed by the attitude I run into on the river of many flyfishers...acting as if they have some God given secret that is interfering with just being friendly. And they genuinely get upset if you arent doing it just like they are...espacially if you start catching fish :D. I cant count how many times Ive approached a flyfisherman and said hello and he answered with a "harumph"...Maybe its Southern Oregon...Or maybe its just me :lol:
That is presicely why I like this forum. You guys are very open minded and friendly toward others regarding the sport. I visit a few different FF forums, but this one has become my first stop :)

Jay

[Darian]

Hmmm,.... Jay, I hope my post wasn't misinterpreted..... :? No sarcasm or disrespect was offered or intended. I was sympathising with Alaskanfish's dilema/predicament with the AK regs. :? :?

That being said, has anyone read the article in the Oct.-Nov. '06 issue of Salmon, Trout, Steelheader, "To Line Or Not To Line?" Very timely, related and it has some interesting observations in it. Some I agree with and others, I don't. Before I commnent further, I'd like to hear your thoughts. 8) 8) 8)

[SullyTM]

jbird...If we tripped over each other on the water I'd say "howdy." Heck, I'd even let you show me where all the fish are :D

As long as an angler isn't breaking the law, damaging the environment or making my life miserable, fishing is fishing IMO.

...and I'll say it again! Personally, I don't care if I get skunked. I just love getting on the water and battling gills and fins!

Later...

[jbird]

Darian...Not at all my friend! As I read and re-read my original post, I thought it necessary to stick my foot further in my mouth :lol: Try as I might, I am not much of a literary artist :oops: :D Alot of stuff comes out the wrong way...but I love to talk so it just kinda pops out :D :D

Sully. Likewise :) you are a great example of the integrity of this forum.

J

[Adam Grace]

I like how Darian broke out the DFG Regulations, you should go into some public office Darian. Thanks for the definition.

Even though a bead is not considered a "fly" by the DFG, the method in which it is fished causes me to consider it fly fishing. You still have to cast a fly line, mend, and all that other stuff. If you want to get technical I can "tie" in a tiny tuft of white marabou or flashabou, therefore transforming a bead into a "fly." :lol:

To each their own.

P.S. I was not a fan of pegging a bead before last year. Now I know this might open up another previous "can of worms"..... The first time I fished a pegged bead it was 1" above the fly and it worked like a charm, much better than a standard glo-bug. I think if you peg more than 4-5" above a hook that you are in danger of snagging a fish. Although controversial with fly fisherman, pegging is pretty effective when the bead is pegged close to the hook.

[Darian]

Adam,.... I thought we were friends.... I wouldn't wish running for public office on my worst enemy.... :( :lol: :lol:

One of the issues surrounding all of this topic is the fact that as fly fishing has evolved since the early Greeks, the line between what is defined as a fly and the construction of same has been blurred (in some cases, eliminated). 8) 8) Altho, that's as it should be, it presents a dilema for fisherman (myself included) who like to be able to define things in black/white terms. Just look at the trouble we have defining what is a fly (other than the legal definition). Even the construction of flies has evolved from the use of threads, wax and varnish to epoxy and Zap-A-Gap. Synthetics rule nowadays. Monofilament threads, etc.

Medieval history reflects that life/death duels were fought over whether a specific Atlantic Salmon pattern could be tied with certain materials or not. :shock: :shock:

Traditionalists may have a very specific view of what a fly is. For example, to some use of a dry fly on a floating line is the only true fly fishing. All else is excluded. 8) 8) On the other side, there's a bunch of guys trying to define things loosely (myself included) so that most anything/everything is OK. 8) 8) That leaves a lot of room for debate. 8) As most of you know, by now, I'm down with that. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'd still like to hear from anyone who's read the article cited in my prior note. 8) 8) 8)

[Matt Frey]

Medieval history reflects that life/death duels were fought over whether a specific Atlantic Salmon pattern could be tied with certain materials or not.

Hey Darian,
I have never heard of this before. What is this all about? Where can I read more about it?
Thanks,
Matt

[Hairstacker]

Jay, well said and I'm with you. Had the question not been asked, I wouldn't have given the subject any thought. And if I encountered anyone on a river using beads, I wouldn't think either way about it then either -- I'd just be curious whether they were having any luck and, if they were, I'd no doubt congratulate 'em. :)

As Thom said, fishing is fishing. And I don't think less of other methods just because I prefer to do otherwise. In fact, I have a son who's favorite approach to fishing is to sit on the bank of a lake and dunk Powerbait for planters while focusing on the snacks we bring -- I plan to join him this spring, we will have fun, and I won't feel the least bit guily/inferior/ashamed/etc., etc. :D

Bummer you run into so many attitudes on those streams. I mostly fish the Delta and although I never run into other fly fishermen, the vast majority of conventional gear folks I encounter are very friendly. Maybe it has something to do with the vastness of the place. I would suspect ocean guys don't encounter much attitude either. In other words, perhaps it's because no one feels like their fishing spot is being threatened or crowded?

[590Mike]

Jay nicely said...... here is" My definitons of flyfishing :D "

1 The art of tying and untying and untying knots either intentional or otherwise"

2 "An outdoor sport,hobby or interest in which seemingly intelligent and capable individual(s) position themselves in,on, or near a body of water,using highly specialized equipment and employing sporadic physical movements of the arm and upper body and colorful metaphors and commands ;in order to control the flyline with the intent of "casting" an artificial lure* into the water away from surrounding trees and bushes, in the hopes of fooling a fish.

*Lure /fly, hook with various material lashed on to resemble something,but,no one really knows what the heck that may be.

[Adam Grace]

Mike, I enjoy your definitions. Very "Websters-like" :lol:

[mike N]

My take on the issue is somewhat consistent with the State's. If it's not tied (or at a minimum applied) on a hook it's not a fly. Therefore I would not consider a bead on the leader, pegged or otherwise to be actually fly fishing by my definition.

That being said, I fish the salmon line up at a favorite spot on the A along side many "fly fishers" employing various bead rigs, heated hooks and melted beads, loose on the leader, etc. We get along great. I use flies and they catch more fish. So bead it, pun intended.

Personally, I would rather lose a dozen flies to the river gods rather than fish with a bare bead on the leader, pegged or otherwise.

MN

[590Mike]

Adam.... thanks after that I need a couple of asprin though.

[Darian]

Matt,.... I can't recall in what book or magazine I read the info about the duels fought over materials, etc., in medieval times. There's a bunch of reading material about the history and possible origin of fly fishing if you're inclined to pursue it. For example, the first recorded use of a concoction that may've been a fly was used by the ancient Greeks. The fly was described as being something close to a wooly worm. 8) 8)

Then there was Dame Julianna Berners (I believe). A British woman who was a fly fisher.... 8) 8) Lotsa neat stuff out there.

At any rate, I have two book cases full of fly fishing/tying books and several boxes of old issues of magazines (Fly Tyer and American Angler) among them. The first of those books, I acquired in approximately 1963 and it was old then. A lot of what is tied up in those books is available on-line using search tools. 8) 8) Even now, articles are being reprinted from the writings of people like Roderick Haig-Brown. 8) 8)

Happy researching Matt :D :D

[Matt Frey]

Darian,
I am starting to develop my own collection of books, magazines, and etc... I have been really interested in reading about fly fishing. If I cant be on the water at least I can read about it. 8) I entered "Roderick Haig-Brown" into Amazon and got a ton of results. Can you recommend anything of his?
Thanks
Matt

[Darian]

Matt,.... You might be interested in "Fisherman's Fall" or "Haig-Brown The Master and His Fish." There are other titles, too. 8)

One of my favorite authors for fly fishing/life is Russel Chatham. He wrote some books that're more down to earth, so to speak. Check out "The Anglers Coast", "Dark Waters" or "Silent Seasons." Lotsa good information in all of them. 8) 8)

If you're interested in the history of our sport, try anything written by J. Edson Leonard, Joseph Bates or Bergman. Most of the material will be about fly tying/fishing in the 40's/50's but there is a lot of history included in their comments. :) :)

Modern authors include Charles Brooks, Dave Whitlock, KEN HANLEY and A. K. Best.... This is not intended to be a comprehensive list of authors but is a good start.... You'll find more materials and authors from the books/mag's that you read. Some of this stuff you'll get from guys in discusions like this one. 8) 8)

[Matt Frey]

Very cool Darian thanks for the advice. I will have to check out a couple of those authors that you mentioned. I have been reading some John Gierach. In my opinion he is great. I have 2 of Ken's books already and just ordered AK Best's Dyeing and Bleaching Natural Fly Tying Materials. This way I can dye all of the bucktails I got from Jay. I am looking forward to trying my hand at fishing the surf. This website and Ken's book Fly Fishing Afoot in the Surf Zone have me pumped. Its a lot easier for me to get to the ocean then it is for me to get to trout streams. Thanks again. I appreciate all you add to this forum. 8)

[Darian]

OK guys,.... Let's throw some fresh fuel on the fire. :evil: :evil: Just to refresh the issue, the original question involved whether using beads is fly fishing (or something to that affect) :? :?

I just ran 2 searches and found the following:

1) at www.answers.com/topic/fly-fishing, under Dictionary-Words-Wordnet:
"Fly fishing has one meaning, angling with an artificial fly as a lure."

2) at Wikipedia - "Artificial flies are tied onto a hook with thread, fur, feathers and other materials."

Now it's not likely that the second definition is going to satisfy the question of what is a fly (e.g. "....other materials" is included). But, it's certainly leaning toward exclusion of beads slid down a leader, melted or glued onto a hook as a fly.... 8) Besides, it satisfies my need to eliminate ambiguities involved. :P :P As I said in my first post, I could care less how or what a person fishes with as long as it's legal.... 8) 8) I really just like the debate/discourse. :D :D :D

[alaskanfish]

Darian,

I am ready for your comments on this article :). But just to get the dialogue rolling, I'll step out on the limb and state my point of view.

I found this to be very interesting, however very one sided. It is dealing with only chinook salmon and NOT trout and understandibly not sockeye.

I do indeed agree that the majority of sockeye fishing on the Russian (in Alaska) and the Kenai involve lining the fish. Many are "hooked" on the outside of the mouth. And still many more are hooked in the head and elsewhere. Alaska regulations are very clear that a fish hooked anywhere other than the mouth is foul hooked and must be released immediately. This includes those that are hooked on the outside of the mouth (snagged and must be released).

I have fished extensively for chinook (king salmon) on the Kenai (conventional) and Kasilof (fly). My experience is in agreement with the premises of this article. I have not used beads fishing for kings, nor have I witnessed anyone fishing beads. Nevertheless, conventionally, we use rigs similar to that described on the Kenai for drift fishing, except that we use a spin-n-glow or cheater (with and without wings, primarily used as a float, but could be considered an oversized bead????). We are not using fly rods, but the terminal setup is the same. I have experienced the "mushy" rod feeling described, but also had the rod slam to the water. So, am I to assume that when the take is mushy that I lined the king? I have had similar "mushy" hits while back trolling as well. Infact, many of the kings caught in my boat this year hit like a trout. It wasn't until the hook was set that the rod came alive. So, I am not certain that dogmatism is justified here.

Another aspect that was left out of this article, and could be unique to Alaska???? is subsitence fishing; that is fishing for food vs. sport fishing. When I am looking to put fish in the freezer, I am going to use whatever legal means possible that is most effective. I don't really care about "learning about angling" in that respect. On the other hand, when I am sport fishing, I will be more interested in learning techniques, finesse, new tackle, new spots, etc. without the emphasis being soley on catching.

By the way, I have clearly seen sockeye turn and attack a fly. I have caught sockeye on bait while fishing for coho and on plugs while fishing for chinook... I agree that most sockeye are lined, there are definitely exceptions to every rule.

Now, when we are talking trout, I totally disagree with the author (though he did specificially indicate that he was talking chinook salmon). I have worked the water heavily with a bead setup (using shot instead of a slinky; if that makes any difference at all????) with little or no success. Changed the bead color, size, shape, etc and all of the sudden it was catching on most every cast. If this were lining trout, seems like I would have found success earlier irregardless of the bead color, size, or shape.

So, based on that, one must conclude that I am indeed fooling the fish into biting the hook; the very essence of sport fishing (as the author put it). Therefore, I assert that bead fishing does have a place in sport fishing. It is ethical and sporting and edifying and fulfilling and ejnoyable. I did take offense to the author's statement, "yet any guide worth his or her salt won't [bead]." Every trip is unique with its own challenges. If beads are catching the fish, and the client isn't intent on casting flies or streamers or, Heaven knows what, I say let's fish beads.

By the way, we use a #2 or 4 hook with the bead no more than 2" above the hook, the shot at least 18" and enough leader so that the shot will tap the bottom without dragging the indicator (I know, another hot topic) or line down, usually the leader is 1.5 - 2 times the depth fished.

[Darian]

Thanks for your thoughts on the article.... I have to agree that the author was rather dogmatic on this subject.... :? :? Altho, I think he was trying to evoke a response of any sort. He's primarily a California fisherman (describes fishing the American and Feather rivers in California) and that's possibly why he didn't address fishing for anything other than King Salmon. Slivers, basically, are not available in many of California's rivers. :( :(

Subsistance fishing isn't something that involves anything beyond nets or traps, for the most part. With few exceptions, in California, Native Americans are the only people who may use nets/traps for Salmon in freshwater. 8) 8)

It almost sounds like the author "got religion" after a long stretch of being a "heathen." :lol: :lol: :lol: Still, he raises some interesting issues. 8) 8)

[Matt Frey]

To start I want to say that I do not intend to judge anyone. If you enjoy the way you are landing fish and are following the law, then do whatever you want.

I have never pegged a bead but have fished with egg patterns, and I will be using some this winter on the Lower Sac. So I am not anti-egg … although I know some who are.

I guess for me the whole thing turns on why you decide to peg your bead.

Is it to ensure that the fish isn’t hooked deeply or is it just to catch more fish? I have heard the argument that by pegging beads you are helping to ensure that the fish doesn’t inhale the fly and therefore the released fish is more likely to survive your encounter with it. If you really believe this and this is your reason for pegging beads then I find this totally acceptable and almost admirable. But I havent noticed that fish don’t seem to swallow eggs more than they swallow any other pattern.

If I understand pegging beads correctly, the fish hits your bead and then you set the hook. This bare hook then hooks the side of the mouth or head. It seems to make “hooking” the fish a lot easier, because even if the fish spits the bead it will have a hard time shaking the hook. If the fish hits a fly, it has a chance of spitting the fly, which in my opinion makes it more challenging. I fly fish, as opposed to fishing conventional gear, for the challenge of it. It seems that pegging beads eliminates part of this, but hey I could be totally wrong about this, as I have never fished w/ a pegged bead.

As to whether it’s fly fishing, to be honest I don’t see why that matters. If you are out there having fun that’s all that matters. Do what makes you happy as long as you’re not breaking the law and not killing fish unnecessarily.

Have fun out there, and I hope you all catch big fish!

[alaskanfish]

Matt:

AMEN! You are correct in stating the reasons for pegging the beads. The law prohibits beads from being pegged more than 2" away from the hook in order to minimize the incidents of foul hooking and to keep the hook out of the gills. A free sliding bead potentially could slide up the line more, maybe increasing this??? However free sliding beads are allowed.

I am all for legal, ethical and fun fishing as long as the resource is protected from unecessary abuse and disregard.

Darian: :lol: :lol:

I agree. However, subsistence in the technical sense of the word is simply fishing for food. In the traditional sense of the word, it involves nets and traps. In Alaska, we have the ability to subsistence fish in the tradional sense with nets (traps are not allowed, however fish wheels are used in some areas). We also have a personal use fishery (really also subsistence) where families, irregardless of race, religion, etc, who are Alaska residents can use what they call a dip net to harvest 25 fish for the head of the household and 10 more for each family member per year. This dip net is constructed using a variety of materials, but cannot exceed more than 5' at its wides part. It uses gill net for the bag. It is very effective way to catch a lot of fish. Nevertheless, many folks easily catch more fish using rod and line than in the PU fishery. If the daily bag limit is 3 with no annual limit, it doesn't take very long to fill the freezer. This year, the Russian sockeye return was so large that the daily limit was raised to 6 per person per day! So, certainly in a non-traditional sense, many folks will subsistence fish for sockeye using the method of lining or flossing.

As far as the religion thing goes, I guess I am still a heathen!!! :D :D maybe some day, I'll grow up

[dtp916]

I'm almost afraid to post a response, since this topic has got so controversial :lol:

We all must take into consideration, what do WE consider fly fishing? As mentioned, some only think of it as upstream dry fly. Some think that pegging or beads are not fly fishing.

Technical definitions of what fly fishing is cannot always be considered set in stone. One person's view or interpretation may be totally different from another. Think of it as ruilings in a court room. Every judge is different.

Here are my thoughts:

jbird: I'm with you, if you're fishing with a fly rod, reel, and fly line, as a "normal" fly should be fished, then I would say, YES. It's a fly.

Bob Laskodi: I'm with you, If I tied a bead to the hook, Yes. It's a fly.

Darian: I'm with you, A bead pegged is not a fly, but one melted to a hook shank is :lol: =D> Melting a bead onto the hook seems a little crazy to me. This is where the fine print is...No, it's not a fly.

Adam Grace: Good point, Adam. You're mending, you're false casting, you fly fishing. You can break out the tying materials and add some marabou or a little flash, and now we have a legit fly. Yes, it's definetely a fly.

Lastly, according to the poll 57% say its fly, 23% no, 19% don't care. But thats only 26 out of 37 who left comments, 643 views (views, not viewers) :D

My opinion, is that if you are casting a fly rod, with a fly reel and fly line, you're equipped with a leader, then it's a fly. If you're pegging the bead 2" or less from the hook (remember this doesn't qualify CA DF&G Regs as a fly), and you're doin the above, it's a fly. But if your fishing conventional gear, hell no it ain't a fly. It's a piece of freakin' plastic :nod: . Same goes to fishing flies with a bubble on convential gear.

What it comes down to, is catching fish. If everyone is throwing beads and nailing fish on nearly every cast, and your glo bug ain't catching anything but moss, I'd be beading. :D Some people's pride won't let them do it, that's ok. We're not gonna tell you to do anything you don't feel comfortable with 8)

I like to keep an open mind 8) 8) 8)

[Frank Alessio]

It all depends on if you are using a BEAD ROD or not......

It is Fly fishing if you pull a little bit of yarn through the bead....

[PaulC]

I have to admit this is the most civil discussion on bead fishing on a fly fishing board.
Thats truely what makes this site so special.
I will fish beads when the water is off color and switch to nymphs with clearer water.
I have deep hooked a few fish with glowbugs and no longer fish those at all.
Almost all of the fish I have ever hooked beading have been inside the mouth, both in AK and here in CA.
Made for an easy, quick release. No harm no foul.

Most folks that know me, realize I love to tye flies. However, personally, I would rather peg a bead than fish a glowbug. Its not like glowbugs require mad tying skills.

In the end, I think it is what you're willing to toss. I fish with guys that won't break from using conventional and have a great time fishing with them.
Seeing one friend a couple years back outfish us on steelhead bouncing glowbugs using a spin rod was a true work of art.
It made fly fishing dead drift under indicator look like cheating.

The thing that gets lost in what is or is not fly fishing, is what ever happened to all of us just fishing and having fun.
One man's technique is not anothers but we're all out there having fun.
Granted, if you're out there with 10 treble hook droppers and snagging you should be shot.
Life's short, fish what you enjoy and most of all....take a break and enjoy the surroundings.

Well...here's one on a big prince nymph my buddy caught last weekend.
Beads had no place in clear water like that.
5 cartwheels later and...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/Cronin/Brendon_fish2.jpg

[Adam Grace]

Nice steelie!

[dtp916]

That IS a nice steelie 8)

I love that comment about 10 treble hooks and snagging :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Darian]

Hmmmm,..... Seems we've covered a lot of ground here. :? :? Some of it beyond the scope of the original question....

"Fishing beads is a very effective way of catching fish during the spawn. Many, however consider this to be something other than fly fishing. What are your thoughts? For those who do not consider beads to be fly fishing, how do you feel about nymphs?"

Did we answer the question of, "....how do you feel about nymphs?" IMHO, fishing a natural, live nymph is not fishing a fly, regardless of the equipment used to deliver the bait, but fishing an artificial nymph is.... 8) 8) Soooo, I guess if I subscibe to that description, I'm a traditionalist and that's OK with me. :lol: :lol:

Still a bunch of ambiguities involved in all of our responses but that's probably normal for human discourse. One thing I do have to mention is the reference to "....technical definitions not being chiseled in stone", by someone. :? :? After doing a lot of legal and IT type stuff for the state for too many years, it became apparent to me that all technical definitions are chiseled in stone until they aren't.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

This was fun but I think I'm out of gas, now.... :D :D :D :D

[dtp916]

Oh....it's my fault. #-o I apologize, I thought this was a fly fishing forum, not a legal and IT type stuff forum. Looks like everything must be black or white. :lol: :lol: :lol: No room for gray. Fly Fishing or (gulp) [-( "that other type" :lol: :lol: :lol:

[DocEsox]

Hi....new guy here who lives in Alaska. If you look up fly fishing in Websters it states it is using fly gear with an "artificial fly". If you go to "artificial" it says simply "man made". So if we go by this most basic interpretation fly fishing would have to technically mean only fishing using a man made fly imitation. The rest of the time I guess would be "fly rodding". Of course this would put the use of nymphs, wooly buggers, sculpins or anything not exactly imitating a fly outside the term "fly fishing". When I grew up dry fly purists considered use of anything else as less than real fly fishing. Having said that now....I think it's a bunch of elitist crap. Even though I spent much of my teenage years dry fly fishing the waters of Montana. I think to most people the popular definition of fly fishing is using something artificial fished with fly gear....whether it be nymphs, buggers, poppers, etc... Is a bead artificial, i.e., man-made? Certainly, I just didn't make it.

Having used glo-bugs extensively in the past, and free sliding beads I have had many fish hooked deep with them. Since I started using a pegged-bead (I use it at about 1 1/2 to 2 inches) I cannot remember having a fish hooked deep....that includes a couple of hundred trout this fall also. The techniques used by many people using fly rods for salmon is NOT flyfishing.....whenever you are attempting to line fish all you are doing is glorified snagging. And, whereas I have seen sockeye actively hit a fly in the Russian....it, unfortunately is not the common experience.

Brian

And, "yes", I do use the heathenist strike indicator, i.e., "bobber" when drifing beads. To easy for a few with elitist attitudes to give fly fisherman in general, a bad reputation.

[Hairstacker]

Hey Brian, welcome aboard!! I am not into elitism either (just take a look at my gear :lol: ) so, just to be clear, I defined the boundaries of what I consider fly fishing FOR ME, not for anyone else. What I subscribe to has nothing to do with whether I think someone else should be doing it and certainly doesn't reflect any holier-than-thou attitude towards anyone. Moreover, I don't think my failure to subscribe to someone else's definition of fly fishing makes my preference "elitist crap." No offense intended or taken, by the way. :D

[Darian]

Hi Brian,.... Nice to hear from a newbie on this subject. 8) 8) Interesting post with some strong opinions included.... :?

"If you look up fly fishing in Websters it states it is using fly gear with an "artificial fly". If you go to "artificial" it says simply "man made". So if we go by this most basic interpretation fly fishing would have to technically mean only fishing using a man made fly imitation. The rest of the time I guess would be "fly rodding". Of course this would put the use of nymphs, wooly buggers, sculpins or anything not exactly imitating a fly outside the term "fly fishing"."

I quoted the above paragraph make an observation/point and obtain some clarification. Unless I'm missing something, nymphs, wooly buggers, sculpins are included in the definition of flies. 8) 8) Soooo,.... I'm assuming that you're excluding anything but a dry fly from the dictionary definition. :?
:? :?

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm asuming that you see wet flies, nymphs and streamers, etc., as included in fly fishing and beads as not :?: :?: :?

[jbird]

I think its time for a new subject :D :D :D :D I'm starting to get the feeling this thread wont be satisfied til an argument erupts. The integrity of these board members has made a usually controvercial issue surprisingly civil. 8)

A hair can only be split so many times. :wasted:

J

[DocEsox]

Sorry for any consternation Darian....I was just being a pain. Guess this has always been a sore subject with me....not what exactly is flyfishing but the elitist attitude some feel goes with it. My father and uncle taught me flyfishing in my teens and I have been doing it for nearly 40 years. Several years ago while living in Great Falls, MT I was fishing the upper Missouri in mid March and struck up a conversation with two california flyfishermen casting the same stretch. After about 3 hours of chucking nymphs, scuds, whatever and no action (the fish were probably too freakin cold)....I trekked back to the car and grabbed my spinning rod with a rapala attached to it. The look and cold shoulder I received from my, until recently congenial, california
compatriots was unmistakeable. They made several rude comments, moved downstream from me and took off a little later. When I finished fishing (having done fairly okay with the rapala) I returned to my brand, spanking new Ford Explorer to find one of the rear tires had a six inch knife gash in it.....nice guys. But in Montana when fishing, don't mention anything about being from California or you may just get shoot due to similar episodes with many of the locals there.

I am allowed to rail on Californians as I was once considered one for nearly 3 decades....grew up in Southern Cal.....went to USC.....etc, etc.. Have been an Alaskan since 92...with a minor in Montanaism. A very good friend of mine, who was president of the Missouri River Flyfishing Association, was absolutely in a moral dilemma several years ago while we were fishing and he was contemplating using a San Juan worm....it was almost hysterical if it weren't so sad.

Here's an Encyclopedia Britannica definition of "fly-tying" that sums up what terminal gear on the tippet classifies it as fly fishing for me:

"the hobby or business of imitating the live food of gamefish by attaching various materials to a hook. Most often used to imitate various life stages of insects, the craft also imitates minnows and other natural foods. It has been estimated that more than a quarter of a million persons pursue fly-tying as a hobby. The origins of fly-tying date to the 1st or 2nd century BC in…"

If I'm not mistaken eggs are "natural foods"....whether they be glow bugs or beads.

Brian

This is an awfully civil forum....

[590Mike]

Brian welcome to the board....is the North Slope resturant still open?

[DocEsox]

Yes...the North Slope is still open....matter of fact they expanded a bit last year....quaint looking restaurant.

Brian

[Darian]

Brian,.... Sorry to hear about your negative encounter in Montana. I can't imagine why anyone other than a miscreant would stoop to slashing tires over a whether one should fish with a lure or fly. :? :? :? That seems similar to the "dueling" mentality mentioned earlier in the thread.

I have no problems accepting other definitions of almost anything. t just seems that my curiosity about stuff overtakes me and I have to ask questions taht contrinute to the length of this thread.

Altho some of the main points raised have reflected shades of grey in defining what is fly fishing or a fly, it is necessary to be more specific for many purposes, practical/legal, to do so in black/white terms. In a discussion of this type, definitions may take into account any number of factors (and have); all may or may not be valid from the poiint of view of the reader.

I concur with everyone that Nothing is clearly black/white. However, For ease in my personal understanding of things, I prefer a certain amount of structure in defining/describing objects/ subjects. Just makes it easier to comprehend.

Apparently, we have something in common. I too am a SoCal transplant. The job moved me northward. Now retired and enjoying it. 8) 8) 8)

[DocEsox]

Darian....if it's any consolation I consider everything 100 miles north of LA a different state.....Southern Cal and Northern Cal. All the problems I am familiar with were from the state of Southern Cal. Yes, definitions do have to be succinct when being interpreted from specific states regulations. I had this problem in Montana last year where bull trout are a threatened species and cannot be actively fished for. Unfortunately in the waters I have fished (the Swan River....trib to Flathead Lake) there have been brookies introduced ages ago. They are having an increasing detrimental effect as they are cross breeding with the native bull trout....some of the F1 hybrids are fertile and can back breed further. The MT DNR would love you to kill ever hybrid you see, as well as keep most of the brookies but they do not advertise the fact since most people have a hard time differentiating a brookie from a bull trout. I had kept two large hybrids....one 22" and one 23" when checked by a ranger....he informed me I had taken bull trout illegally. I informed him he should be able to recognize a hybrid from a bull trout.......(hybrids count in the liberal limit for brookies.....these are the only fish I ever keep and they are delicious). He wrote the ticket anyway with a caveat if I wanted to check in with the fisheries biologist, whom I was acquainted with through email. I readily agreed and the biologist had the ticket rescinded as he confirmed the fish were hybrids. Pretty sad the ranger couldn't tell the difference....basic rule is hybrids have spotting/vermiculations on the dorsal fin.....bull trout have absolutely no markings on their dorsal....there are other things too....the spotting color is a bit different. You are right Darian that it is good to know specific definitions of what is and what isn't....varies from state reg to state reg. Here in Alaska possession of fish means until you freeze or smoke them....then they no longer are in possession.....no other state defines it that way. Here's a picture of one of those hybrids......handsome fish:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/DocEsox/UpperSwanSalmonPrairie.jpg

Brian

[sculpin]

I try to stay out of the discussions about what is realy fly fishing. The same with the, nymphing,indicators,taking pictures of and the handling fish,ect,ect,ect,ect . But anyway you shake it up that is a beautiful fish Brian.


Mark

[FISHEYE]

Hello, my name is Phil and I am a beader. I registered just to vote on this. I voted yes, beading is fly fishing but certainly not in the traditional sense. It's more like nymphing but really who cares. As long as its legal it's ok with me and who are we to judge what others do. This subject has been hashed and rehashed on many of the Alaskan sites. I admit, I am a beader when I need to be, and I need to be often. Its either that or catch nothing. I probably caught 1000 rainbows and dollies on beads this summer and fall. I think I maybe hooked 3 or 4 outside the mouth, and as someone else said, they are never, ever hooked deeply. I also must say that I get just as much enjoyment going through my boxes of beads and painting them in different ways as I do going though my boxes of flies. For those of you who think bead fishing is not technical- think again. It can be tough to get the right bead/weight combo and to get it to the fish. Sunday on the Kenai was a tough day, with high water and very long leaders.

[Darian]

Hey Brian,.... Funny how we seem to see LA the same way. I always divided the state in roughly the same way. Altho, my dividing line was at the are around Bakersfield south to SoCal and from there to NorCal. :) :) That's one good looking fish. Good eating, too :?: :?: I've never been to Montana. Gotta make a trip up there.

Phil,.... Welcome aboard. I may've seen your handle on another BB (sorry, I can't recall which one....). 8) 8) Your post reminds me that "beaders" and fly fishers share the same problem. That is the need to present the lure at the depth of the fish. 8) 8) I tend to agree that hooking a fish deeply is not likely when using beads (a big positive).

From your post, I gather that you do include nymphing in the definition of fly fishing.... Please feel free to make a correction here if I'm wrong. :D :D

[Flyjunkie]

... There is a FFO water in California... it's HOT CREEK ; The Regs state "Single, Barbless, Flies Only"

If one is worried about deep hooking Trout on a Glo Bug. here's what was recommended Years ago (the 1980s). Only fish the Glo Bugs to Fish you can see.. No Blindly fishing the water with them. Tye them on Larger, wider gaped Hooks.. this prevents the fish from swallowing the Glo bug as quickly...

Personally I'll never peg a Bead to catch fish.. if you want to, that's fine.. I rarely fish Glo bugs.. (they just seem to rot in the flybox they've been setting in for years) I have found I can get the Steelhead on Babine specials, Two egg Sperm flies & LaFontaine's Double marabou Egg pattern. I also like to swing LaFontaine's Single marabou Egg fly..

As Long as You are Not Counting the Fouled hook Trout or Salmon as Legit Caught fish while Beading...then it's OK...

However, I had a Customer come in the Shop looking for those Plastic Beads.. He wanted to start fishing them in various Rivers here in California. I mentioned we don't carry those Plastic beads and that he should be careful where he wanted to fish them. 'cause on Hot Creek you'd get Nailed for using something that isn't a Fly.. which a Pegged Bead certainly isn't....

I wouldn't call it Flyfishing..cause I wasn't able to Construct the Artificial on a Hook... But you are fishing an Artificial, by using a Flyrod to do it...

When i was Just starting to flyfish (I was 12-13 years old) I would sometimes tie on a Bait hook and Dap salmon eggs or a Nightcrawler with my Flyrod.. I knew i wasn't Flyfishing..just using the flyrod to Fish with Bait....even back then.


as Long as One is out there and Enjoying having escaped the Rat race, being in the Wilds. Then it's all good.. if you are of the mind that you have to Catch Fish to have a Good time, you are missing the Whole picture.





DEAN ~~~ 8) 8)

[DocEsox]

Let me kind of correct myself about the regulations in Alaska....just perused them again. There are many artificials only areas but only a few fly fishing only areas and the regs state that a pegged bead with a bare hook is not considered an appropriate fly. The bead would actually have to be attached to the fly.

Brian

[Darian]

Hmmmm,.... I wonder if there's actually more than Hot Creek designated flies only in the DFG Regs?? Thanks for the reminder Dean....

Something's been bothering me about this thread all along.... :? :?

The original question was, "is bead fishing really fly fishing :?: " It seems to that there're two questions here. The first, are beads considered to be a fly :?: :?: And, the second, is fishing beads on "gear" fly fishing :?: :?:

Of course, the answers to these questions have already been stated (directly or indirectly) in this thread as we all labored to give our opinions/perceptions on the topic. For whatever it's worth, the consensus seems to be that bead fishing is fly fishing. 8) 8) However, it doesn't appear that the answer to the first question is as certain from our responses. :? :? Since this question really opens up the potential for a lengthy discussion (....or not) it might be better to make it new topic. :D That topic should probably go under the "Fly Tying Forum." :D :D

[Darian]

OK guys,.... We've consdered whether beads are actually flies under ther Fly Tying Forum and I have decided that, IMHO, beads are not flies regardless of what gear they're fished on. 8) 8) I find that I need to have a structuerd definition in oredr to be sure what we're talking about. 8) Since I accept that definition, then it follows (at least for me) that fishing beads is not fly fishing.

Earlier in this thread, I mentioned an article written in Salmon/Trout/Steelheader about the practice of fishing a long leader and beads to catch Salmon/Steelhead, mainly in California. The author of that article condemns the practice as a form of legal snagging. He calls the practice, "....lining...." I've heard it described as "....flossing...."

Now, we have another article written by an author for American Angler in The Rant section titled, "Peg This!" This article appears to condemn the practice if the beads are pegged but not if the beads're attached to the hook. :? :? His point seems to be that fish actaully make an attempt to hit/strike the beads and that they're snagged by the action of the hook swinging about to hook the fish. 8) 8) In California, a fish must take bait/fly/lure inside the mouth and if hooked outside be released unharmed. 8) 8)

Both authors seem to feel that pegging beads using them at all is a form of legal snagging. The condemnation appears to arise from the recognition that the method is very effective. :? :?

[Crusty]

This seems to be a rehash of a thread when Bill's new board came up (maybe two years ago?). On that thread certain posters were claiming that beads were illegal snagging rigs in California. Now those same posters seem to admit they're legal, just unethical.

I must be a double loser. I live in SoCal and I fish with beads and other flies (lures) made of natural and artificial materials tied to a hook BUT not imitating flies.

I don't think I need to post dictionary definitions to prove that sculpins and egg sucking leeches are not imitating creatures of the order Insecta. But these two flies (lures) are arguably the most popular large trout catchers in Alaska after beads. I can hardly wait for my next flyfishing...sorry flyrodding trips up to Alaska.

I'm off now to do some flyrodding in saltwater...not many insects hatching there now. :)

Crusty the Flyrodder

[Darian]

Hmmmm,.... Lots of righteous indignation here, Crusty. OK, I'll try to explain this again. The reason for the definition: adoption of a specific definiton from a dicitonary facilitates communication and understanding.... 8) 8) Loosely defining this subject means that we may not be understanding what the other person is actually saying. Obviously, you can choose to adopt your own description or none if that's your preference. 8)

As to your point about legality, beads (flies/lures were excluded form this thread by its title) used to entice a strike/take from a fish are legal in Califiornia. Beads used to deliberatley hook (snag) fish, outside the mouth in freshwater are not. If you're hooking all of your fish outside the mouth, you're snagging and you need to change your rig to whatever configuration that allows you to hook fish legally.

I note you didn't mention any opinion about the two articles about using beads and the technique called "....lining...." mentioned in the two articles cited. One of these authors had objections to the practice. The other objected to using pegged beads. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Nobody whose posted on this thread wants to condemn anothers legal methods, beads or lures. Lighten up and join in.... 8) 8) 8)

[jbird]

I actually kind of enjoyed crusty's post. I wasnt offended by it at all. I thought it was fairly tactful. Just another persons pespective on this topic 8)

Jay

[Frank Alessio]

What about those egg pattern puff ball little things? How do they figure in to the picture.....?

[Dustin Revel]

Darian,
are you fly fishing if you are using one fly and a bead posted .5" above a bare hook? this is a very come rig. just thought I would muddy the water a bit.
Dusty

[Darian]

Hi Jay,.... I wasn't offended either but did detect a slightly negative overtone in the post. :? :? 8) Apologies to Crusty and you if I've misinterpreted.

At any rate, I was hoping to hear more about the reaction of the group to the articles about Pegging beads and "lining".... I'm hoping Crusty or any of the rest to have something to add, there.

Frank,.... According to my definition, if the "....egg pattern puff ball little things...." are tied to a hook using thread, they're a fly. If not (glue or whatever) they're not. Of course, that's only for my purposes. 8) :lol:

Dustin,.... Muddy on.... This is a new/slightly different question.... difficult to answer using my definition.... I've read many accounts of Bass fisherman using a lure with a fly behind it (Primarily to catch Bass.... The fly is used in the hopes of catching Sunnies incidentally) and they didn't see that as fly fishing. So, IMHO, if a bead is a lure (I think it is), you're not fly fishing.... 8) Take the bead off and you are fly fishing. 8) 8) :lol:

[Frank Alessio]

Darian... I know they have a real name.. I just can not remember what they are called in the Fly Shop... Anyone????? Thanks frank

[Darian]

Hi Frank,.... How about Glo-Bugs :?: :?: :?: The first time I ever heard of anyone using an egg pattern was in the late 60's. A pattern called a "duffy" fly was the first. It had a thorax similar to a glo-bug, Abdomen was oval silver tinsel, and a white yarn tail. Simple, yet effective. 8) 8) Haven't seen any of 'em since the mid 70's.... :? :? :?

[Dustin Revel]

i think I know what frank is talking about. they are puff balls like the ones you see in craft stores with a little mylar tinsel in them. they just slide on a hook.
Darian,
if the fish is caught on the nymph while using the rig I describe is it being caught with the method of fly fishing? I think so.
I agree with your definition of the fly, but I am skeptical when it comes to your definition of fly fishing. I can see where you have come up with the definition though Fly fishing=fishing with flies that is a pretty simple idea.
I believe is Fly fishing is a way of angling where the weight of the line is used to cast an artificial lure. the lure or sinker is not what is being cast. This is a pretty common definition i think, but it hasn't really been said here.
Dusty

[Ed Wahl]

Isn't this really a "tastes great", "less filling", kind of arguement? Or how about the perennial "left hand retrieve", Right hand retrieve" issue. Then there's the big one, "is my bourbon glass half full or half empty", I think it was full when I started reading this thread so forgive me. :D

[Dustin Revel]

this is much less exciting than a "great taste" "less fillling" arguement :lol:

[Darian]

Hi Ed,.... It seems you're correct. Altho, I hadn't intended it that way. I thought we'd run out of gas by now. :lol: :lol: :lol: Seems like it's become a how many ways can we slice this up.... :?: :?:

Dustin,.... Puff balls or glo-bugs, if they're attached to the hook using glue, they're a lure not a fly....

For me, casting a fly line is fly casting. Fly fishing is what happens when the line/flies are in the water and, at that point, the type weight (fly line, lead or slinky) is immaterial. As I've already said, I like the simple definitions I've chosen. Broad, all inclusive definitions really don't seem to define much. :? :? :?

Your question about what method is being used when fish is caught on the fly is, IMHO, really splitting hairs. However, in the spirit of this thread, I'd say it's fish catching, not fishing. :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[sculpin]

I'm getting dizzy. :puke:


Mark :D

[Dustin Revel]

any topic that contains to plus posts is definately going to contain some hair splitting :D

[Darian]

OK,.... In order to bring some order to this mess, I propose we establish a new category. 8) 8) Currently, this discusswion has covered the subject of Beads vs Flies or lures vs flies. The new category would be called FLURE fishing/tying; an all inclusive category for those who can't accept my definition(s).

Since there has been so much advancement development in fly fishing/tying, this new catgory would provide make no distinction at all. :) :) Of course, there might be some potential consequences to making this choice. :? :?

Suppose this concept becomes adopted industry wide.... :? :? Bill might have to rename his shop to Kiene's Flure Shop (as would all other shops). Fly rods would become flure rods and fly casting; flure casting. :shock: :shock: If you call into a flure shop to order a particular flure and you can't recall the name/model of it, you could receive black Zara Spook when you wanted to order a black deer hair Taps Bug. :shock: :shock: No problemo with the liberal return policies of flure shops. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Fly clubs might become flure fishing clubs, DFG Regs would have to be revised to reflect this new category for special reg's. Finally, someone on this BB would want to know if use of a tapered leader while fishing constitutes flure fishing or not.... :roll: :roll: :roll:

It's entirely possible to take this bit of sarcasm out to it's completely ridiculous extreme but I'm outa words and here. I've had a good time with this topic and the other under Fly tying. Thanks to all who participated for the chance to have a little fun. :D :D :D :D

[jbird]

THE END!!!

Whew! :D :D :lol: :lol: 8)

[DocEsox]

Uhhhhh....so would a pegged bead be considered a flure?

[Dustin Revel]

i'm not sure I agree with your definition of a flure. can i do that if you coined the term? :lol: :lol:

[David Lee]

How about a orange-colored GLASS bead ..... strung on a hook , then , smothered in epoxy ??

That's a fly .

No kidding ..... I believe this .

David :nod:

[Darian]

David,.... It's a flure.... :P :P :lol: :lol:

[Matt Frey]

What about one of these? If the white whispy material is tied on with thread, is it a fly? I think it may meet the definition.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i94/mattpfrey/egg.jpg

[Darian]

Doc,.... It's a flure. 8) 8) 8)

Dustin,.... I may be mistaken but thought I established that it's OK to disagree with me and/or my definition. 8) 8) (Of course, you'd be wrong :P :P :lol: :lol: :lol: ) Each participant hs to decide what they do or don't accept for themselves. 8) 8)

Matt,.... Since a fly is defined (by me) as being constructed using thread to attach materials to the hook, it's a fly. However, Since a fly may, also, be a lure, it could be a flure :? :? :P :P

Waddayathin'ofthat :?: :?: :?:

[Hairstacker]

And Jay thought this thread was over. . . . :lol: So did I. :? :lol:

[DocEsox]

Okay.....now tell me in this picture does the "bait" trapped in the big fishes mouth qualify as a "flure"? It is all natural........

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/DocEsox/Hugepike.jpg

Darian.....can we get a ruling??????


Brian

[Flyjunkie]

These already have a name, thought I dig "Flure"....

They have been called since the early 20th Century FLYROD LURES....

That's what a Pegged Bead is, a Flyrod Lure.... :wink:




DEAN ~~~~ 8) 8)

[Darian]

Bait is always bait :nod: :nod: What a great photo. Is that one Pike takin' another :?: :?: :?:

[DocEsox]

Yeah, Darian....doesn't pay to be a not large pike. There's a few more in this series. What is fascinating is the big pike would not let go of the small one and the guys brought it to the boat, tailed the big pike took some pictures and put it back in the water and it still never let go of the "flure" pike in its mouth. Tenacious or stupid.

Brian

[Darian]

Brian,.... That is amazing :shock: :shock: Too bad some wide receivers (as in football) don't have the same enthusiasm. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Frank Alessio]

FLURE..... I have been out and around today.... I come home to this...

Darian.. I do not know what you are on but could I PLEASE get some of it?????? Good Job...... Frank

[DonCooksey]

Anyone suggested a bead swap yet? :) Just kidding, I think I'll pass on this discussion for now. :?

[Darian]

Hi Frank,.... Retirement does a lot for the need to play..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dean,.... Good that you're still following this nonsense. 8) Someone has to add some sanity, here. :roll: :roll: :roll: