3-wts & under for the surf?

For the past year or so, I've been experimenting with a variety of light fly rods (3-, 2-, 1-, 0- & 00-wts) in the local San Francisco/Monterey Bay area surf for targeting surfperch, jacksmelt, stripers & other local saltwater game. Has anyone tried similiar tackle for surfperch or other West Coast species? Any particular type of shooting head, running line or sink-tip intermediates found to work best with the lighter rods in saltwater?

thanks,

Mark

[Jay Murakoshi]

Mark,

In my 34 years of fly fishing the surf, my recommendations is to leave the 3 wt at home. Too many factors come into play.

The first being the hydralics of the surf zone. You have incoming, outgoing forces of the water, you'll have a big problem if a slight breeze is blowing, lot's of debris in the water. If you hook into a 150lb ball of kelp the rod could be toast. You'll find, the salt water game is 180 degrees different from fresh water. The fish out there have a bad attitude and are alot stronger than freshwater fish.

I have use 5 and 6 wt's out there but still prefer a 7 wt with a type VI shooting head. But like I say, "to each his own - try it you might like it"

Jay

[lee s.]

We have done a lot of wierd stuff with our 3wt.....halibut to around 8#, bat rays to about 35#, steelies to around 12#, stripes to around 8#, roosters to around 5#, carcinero, needle fish, etc. Some on purpose and some by accident. :roll: Spread the spool on one reel! :roll:
One of the most challenging was to hook a ballyhoo on a #10 shad bug. The beak would dang near always pop the bug up and out of the water. :roll:
We had a set of cut down #8 heads for the rod, a L3F, and a WF4F/SIII. The lead we tried was more trouble than it was worth. But NOW with the introduction of T-8 for shooting heads, even more opportunities abound!
....lee s.
PS - Like Jay says, try it....ya never know. :wink:

Hey Jay,

Great to hear from you. I really dig your innovative fly patterns for the surf - love that Llama sandcrab! I bow my head in reverence to you & the many other great saltwater flyfishing legends who helped pioneer the sport of flyfishing the surf zone (a big hello to Ken Hanley!) .

You're absolutely right about the difficulties posed by the surf when fishing with light fly tackle. I've been working on how to make the most out of the featherweight fly gear under some very excruciating circumstances. Talk about tackling fish with bad attitudes, I C&R'd this cow at Pt. Reyes earlier this year using a 0-wt Sage TXL:

http://home.att.net/~redtail.perch/May20-06/052006im-76.jpg

(photos of other stripers caught on the 0-wt are posted at http://fishingboard.gruk.net/viewtopic.php?t=45)


Hey Lee,

Thanks for the info on what lines you've been trying for the 3-wt - what type of running lines have worked for the shooting heads? Any thoughts on how much backing? 35# bat rays on a 3-wt, now that'll empty some line from your reel!:P


thanks again,

Mark

[Flyjunkie]

MARK,

Curious as to How Long you fought that Striper on the 0 wt.??? I can't see you having any leverage on that fish with such a ultra light rod.. You might have let the striper go after the picture, but was it fought Soo Long the Lactic acid Levels in it's system where soo high it merely swam off a distance and then expired???

Such Small weight rods do not have the backbone to put the Brakes on such big Fish, besides the rods will be extremely overloaded with the heavy heads and bigger flies one often has to use.. thus causing complete structural failure over the long term...

Besides, the talks I've had with Rod manufacturers & Reps are always the same.. this Kind of Fishing Isn't what they made these ultralights for.. and the damage you will most certainly do to the rods fishing them in such fashion are viewed as Abuse by the Companies and will void their warranties...(for the Most part)

I'm in 100% agreement with Jay, leave the little Rods at Home and use Fast 5wts or higher.. Matched to the size of Fish and weight of head, plus Fly size you intend to fish...

using such small rods in the Ocean is like going to a Gun fight with a Knife.. you're way under gunned...... :wink:

DEAN ~~ 8) 8)

[jbird]

I'm with Dean here. To each his own on rod abuse, but be fair to the fish. I personally dont understand the David and Goliath mentality out there in the fishing world. Like Larry Dahlburg catching a sailfish with 4# test....Why? It only harms the fish and often times mortally.

J

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Hi Mark,

I would say that a 6 weight outfit is light for most in the surf even though the fish can be small at times.

More probably use 8 weights in our surf.

We wade at Christmas Island with 10 weights throwing large salt water poppers to Giant Trevally.

I think what you are doing is really interesting.

Personally I can't barely cast the flies I would use in the surf with a 6 weight.

The smallest fast sinking line I can find to stock in the shop (and we do have them in stock daily) is a Rio full length WF4S type#6.

One of the smallest sinktips is a Rio WF4F/S 15' Type 3.

The smallest "Teeny type" sink-head is probably a 150 grain that has about a 25' head that sinks pretty fast.

I can imagine a fast action 9' #3 line rod with any or all of those lines being OK for smaller flies in the surf.

I guess where I am going is at a fly shop we have a serious responsibility when we are outfitting people so the smallest outfit we would recommend to a customer for Pacific surf would be a 9' #6 fast action fly rod.

If it got around that we sold someone a 3 weight outfit for the surf and he showed up at one of Jay and Ken's surf seminars with it we would get laughed out of the county and there would go the reputation that I have worked to build for 40 years.

Now if he said he already fishes with a 6 weight in the surf and wants to try a 3, well that's OK.

[PaulC]

I fish the surf quite a bit down here in SoCal. The lightest rig most of us fish out here are 5-6wts. I have a 6wt Xi2 that I use for corbina, etc. in the summer. I have very little chance quickly landing a large leopard or smoothound in surf with that outfit. Targetting those, I go with an 8wt at bare minimum in order to get them in quick and release.

I fish a 2wt for trout and have landed some large fish despite the light tackle. The scenario there is different however. Properly turning the fish sideway in the current, one can use the river to their advantage and zig zag the trout in as fast as the guy that holds his ground with a 5 wt.
The main reason I use the lighter tackle there is not for the "fun" factor, but the fact the rod has better damping when used with very light tippets (7X) and small bugs (22 and below). It also allows for a more delicate presentation IMHO, and I do not feel it impacts my release times as opposed to fishing with my 5 wt. I just have to move more...

That being said the surf surge presents a different animal where beaching the fish for a quick release really requires one to rely on the backbone of the rod. There was a guy down south this summer catching corbina on a 2wt. I believe it was mentioned it took him 20 minutes to land the fish.
At that point, its basically a floater and dead tired.

Herein lies the problem, C&R is great, but if you have to fight the fish for extended amount of time, you might as well keep it and eat it.

In addition, the functionality reason of why I use a 2wt in situations for trout just isn't there for the surf. There is no advantage to the lighter tackle, and the only reason to use it is for the challenge and fun factor.
This, however, is clearly not in the best interest of the fish and the C&R survival rate.

My personal opinion, is that it is best that one errs on the side of conservatism as far as rod size goes in the surf. If I found it took me too long to get a certain fish in with a rod size. I would pull a bigger stick out of the arsenal and use that instead.

This is all my opinion, however. I'm a firm believer in "to each his own".
Maybe there are some great techniques to using ultra-light tackle in the surf and still maintaining a quick release time.
I'd definitely love to hear more about how you guys are dealing with larger surf species on light tackle to get em in quick.
Having never tried it, I cannot offer any criticism only my uneducated preconceptions based on 6wt experience with sharks.

-Paul

[David Lee]

Mark -

First of all , welcome to the board and congrats on those fine fishes you've been catching !!

I have not used gear that light in the surf (or anywhere , for that matter ....) , but for what you're doing ... I think the T-8 and 15 lb. mono is about as good as you're going to find .

Remember - ONLY YOU can set the 'rules' . While I don't agree w/ tackle that light , it isn't breaking any law .... so do what YOU feel does the trick . I think that's the beauty of flyfishing .

David :D

Dean & J,

That particular striper was mostly fought on the reel (not the rod) before being quickly photo'd, resuscitated & released in the surf in about 10 minutes - yeah, it really stretched out the Amnesia really well (didn't have any problems with the mono kinking or coiling for a long time afterwards!). As with many others stripers I've C&R'd in the surf, whether caught on an 8-wt or 0-wt, the fish was very lively & swam off under a full head of steam - of course, it could have gone belly up just out of sight past the surfline, but it was quite healthy as it shot off into the deep. I don't have any scientific studies to back it up, but the stripers I've encountered in the surf are a lot tougher & resilient than most folks are led to believe or give credit to the species, IMHO. I don't know if the same is true for those caught in freshwater or the delta since I don't fish there much.

I don't specifically target stripers when using the light-weight rods - unfortunately, incidental catches of these & other species besides surfperch are part of the experience (it's a big ocean!). I'd love to hear or read more about the studies or surveys regarding the mortality rate of C&R'd stripers if anyone has any good references to cite. Regardless of tackle or method employed, these & other fish deserve the minimal amount of abuse if they're to be released after being caught. Out of curiousity, just how long has it taken others to land a +30 in. striper on a 7-, 8-wt or heavier rod, whether fishing in fresh or saltwater - less than 5 min on average? Practically all of the stripers under 30 in. that I've C&R'd in the surf have been fought & revived within that length of time - lord knows I've had my share of LDR's with this species!

As far as the light rods go, I've had to scale down everything between the fly & the reel to allow the rods to perform within their design load envelope. How to do this? Experimentation! Most rod manufacturers or reps aren't going to recommend novel or unconventional ways for the customer to fish with their products, nor should one expect them to honor their warranties when the customer uses the product outside of its intended application. Perhaps the fly rod market is poised where the spinning rod industry was about 25-30 yrs ago when fast, high-strength ultra-light composite rods entered the scene & became more mainstream. Hey, what an untapped marketing potential for light-weight, high-strength saltwater fly rods (Sage, Loomis, other rod mfrs - are you listening?)

Is there a limit to these noodle rods? You betcha! Would I use the same noodle rods for bonefish, roosterfish, trevally or other warm-water gamefish similar in size (but not strength) to the West Coast surf denizens? Probably not - but there are folks out there who are doing it, whether we agree with their tactics or not. Heck, the blue water angling community once scoffed at the idea of fly fishing for sailfish, dorado, tuna & other big game species not very long ago until the fly fishing industry responded & developed the tackle to support the activity with the assortment of equipment out there today.

The point is, the sport of saltwater fly fishing is evolving, as does many other recreational activities over time. In recent years, I've met other anglers who have done the "old school" style of saltwater fly fishing, but have found ways of pushing the envelope & are migrating toward some really amazing angling techniques & equipment. More power to them!

Who knows - maybe others are right that I'm just wasting my time, $'s & equipment pursuing some pointless, destructive sporting activity while inadvertently wiping out entire fish stocks single-handedly. OK, I'm gettin' off the soapbox on this subject so others can take the stage.


thanks for the input!

Mark

Hey Bill,

Thanks again for the info on lines. I've tried the Teeny 150 gr on the 3-wt Redington RS2 - works like a champ when the surf doesn't have a lot of left/right swing to it. I haven't tried the Rio WF4F/S yet - looks like a good candidate for a fast 2- or 1-wt. Any thoughts on other running line products (besides Amnesia) for the light fly rods?

Scaling the flies down with the tackle seems to be important for getting the light fly rods to cast well - big, bushy patterns generally don't fair well. I typically cast a triple-fly tippet for the surf, sometimes up to 5 on a dropper-type tippet when the winds & surf are cooperative (oh yeah, these produce multiple hook-ups & fish as well!).

I understand the shop side of the sporting business & realize your need to support your customers in the best way possible without compromising your business. I wouldn't advocate that a newbie to the surf use anything less than a 5- or 6-wt in the surf without getting up on the learning curve first. Shops like yours help us fly fishing enthusiasts figure out how get the most out of the fly fishing experience whereever our journeys take us.

Thanks again - appreciate your help & the great community on this board!

Mark

[PaulC]

Hey Mark,
Hope my previous post didn't come across as direct criticism. Its just my limited observation down here.
I'm really curious to your technique on getting the fish in quickly while on reel with such small flyline. Are you running with the fish and turning it into the beach in a lateral zigzag fashion. I've yet to get a surf striper so i'm not too sure how they run.
Sharks out here run straight out not laterally, so you really have to pump the fish back in.
I think if you're getting em in within 5 minutes on tackle that light, you're doing a fine job!
I agree on the rod manufacturers listening to the community on new materials, etc.
Composites are a tricky business, but some of the stuff we are currently using in aerospace look extremely promising to taking fly fishing to the next level. Cost is currently still a bit prohibitive, but as with all composite materials, the price drops as time progresses and advances in manufacturing are made.
M55J and K13 are high cost materials but blow doors on what we are currently using in industry. That coupled with piezoelectric active damping (currently used in tennis and raquetball gear) could provide a stick that performs like a dream.
Its not too far off...I'm sure the rod manufacturers are looking into it.
If they are not....maybe we should be.
-Paul

Oh yeah, one very important element I've found in fishing with light fly tackle in the surf: use the strongest mono possible in the line system for retrieving your shooting head or sinktip when a fly snags in the kelp or rocks. The stronger lines also allow you to fight the bigger fish directly on the reel (rather than the rod) & minimizes the amount of time the fish is under stress. I'd just break the line or let the hook straighten out if I couldn't bring a fish to hand within 15 minutes (the tendinitus in my casting arm would kill me!).

For the terminal tippet, I often use the heaviest mono I can thread through the hook, usually 15-lb to 20-lb green Maxima (or other stiff mono). I also use good, stiff 40 to 80 lb Berkley Big Game for the dropper line to keep the lighter, multi-fly tippets from tangling with each other - works like a champ on all rods & shooting/sink tip lines. As for fly reels, the Ross Rhythm series has been a real winner for me, very simple bushing & drag system - no fuss or muss if sand gets in, just pop the spool out & dunk it in clean surf (I soak it freshwater with a little dishsoap overnight, then rinse & let it dry after each surf session - good to go the next time out).

If I do compromising anywhere in the line system, it's usually in the hook style for the flies I tie - light-wire #6-12 type hooks straighten out pretty easily if I'm hung up on debris or if I really don't want to mess with that +40 in. leopard shark or +50 lb sting ray. Hey, the fish in the surf around these parts aren't line shy, so why not step up the terminal tackle? (we're just chasing surfperch here, not some spook-prone permit or bonefish!)

TL's

Mark

Hey Paul,

Thanks for the feedback & providing the great info on the state of fly rod material technology - maybe there's a niche market for "nano" fly rods that use some of that fluffy nanotechnology stuff I keep reading about :)

As far as fighting stripers in the surf, most of the fish I've encountered in the surf don't run that far out once I clamp down on the reel - I often get my palms & fingers whacked by the reel handle as line lets out in spurts. Interestingly, the stripers I've caught on 5-wts & higher tended to put up more of the beach sprinting runs - I probably didn't know how to fight them back them since I usually left the drag pretty loosey-goosey at the time (I know better now!).

Otherwise, I'm not sure if it's just me or maybe the linesides I've tackled tend to be more docile than what's perceived elsewhere. Pound for pound, I'd rate them at around a 5 or 6 on a 1-10 fighting scale, with 10 being in the bonefish or trevally category (surfperch, eh, about a 2-3 depending on size) for the typical fly rod setup. But that's just my personal experience. I'd love to check out the pull from the other species down your way.

Oops, the clock's ticking...got another appointment in the surf to attend.

Check back with you all later & thanks again for the great info,

Mark

[jbird]

This is pretty interesting stuff. You do know what youre doing, I'll give you that. Everything youve said about fighting fish is right on with my experience of incidental LARGE fish. Tho I never purposely undergun, I have landed many large incidental salmon while steelhead fishing with a 7wt. And it can be done fairly efficiently with the proper technique. It does take a good deal of skill and a lot of feel to pull it off. I dont recommend undergunning to 95% of the flyfishing world...But if you know what youre doing, go for it :D

Jay

[Darian]

Hmmmm,.... Kinda sounds like you're using the system developed/used by Mark Sosin for bluewater fishing.... 8) The rod is not the principal tool used to land these fish. If I understand correctly, they're fought mainly from the reel, direct, with the rod pointed at the fish or snag when under intense pressure. This allows one to use a strong line to fight the fish (similar to hand lining) 8) 8) Does the reel have a disk drag :?: :?: :?:

Since you say you've had to scale down the related equipment, I'm curious about casting on windy days (....there's always a bunch of those at the beach). What kind of distances do you reach when casting with such a light outfit :?: :?: :?:

Interesting technique.... not one I care to pursue, however. 8) 8)

[Hairstacker]

To me, one of the joys of hooking a good fish with the tackle I'm using is feeling the rod bending and working the fish. It would seem to me that if you're using tackle so light that it forces you to fight the fish directly from the reel, that it wouldn't be as much fun with the rod taken out of the equation. At that point, I have to ask, what is the point? Maybe I'm missing something here. . . . :(

[Darian]

Mike,.... My note is an inquiry based on info from Marks note. We won't be really sure that the method I described is what is being done until confirmed.... Altho I prefer to figth a fish from the rod, it's not uncommon to stress the rod so much that it must be pointed at a fish to keep the rod from being broken in Baja saltwater fishing. :roll: :roll: :roll:

SOoooo,.... I'm not trying to be judgmental as much as confirm my thoughts on how the method works.... 8) 8)

[Hairstacker]

Likewise, to each his own, as I always say. :)

Hi Mike, Darian,

Surfperch is my primary target for the surf, comprising over 90% of my catch. There's nothing more fun than experiencing the all-day perch bite when just about every cast results in a grab or tug. The noodle rods are more than adequate for these species & do an excellent job of handling +16 in. (+2 lb) fish. However, for those rare occasions when Mr. Striper or Mr. Leopard shows up, these rods do have their limits. The Redington RS2 3-wt is about as low as I can comfortably go for fighting 30-40 in. fish directly with the rod (the RS2 3-wt rod actually feels closer to a 4-wt or a slow 5-wt, but it's rated to what it is).

The Sage 0-wt TXL has enough toughness & stiffness to manhandle stripers up to about 24 in. - for the bigger fish, I've let the reel & line system do the bulk of the fighting if the rod begins to feel overpowered. In my experience, it's pretty rare to consistently hook other species when exclusively targeting surfperch as often as I do, but it does happen once in a great while - stripers, leopard sharks & other large fish are not my first choice when fishing the surf with the light rods. It's a real sphincter puckering experience whenever these bad boys show up - the tackle works well if you know how to handle the equipment when the need arises!:)

The Ross Rhythm series of reels have disc drag systems - they've worked like champs for all my rods from 00- to 8-wt. I like them because they're so easy to clean & maintain (no internal gizmos to worry about getting jammed by sand & grit). The Rhythm 3 & 3.5 did a nice job hauling up a good number of tail- & butt-hooked sockeye on the Kenai for me last summer on 6/7- & 7-wt RS2's (that was really sporty if you know how sockeyes react when they're hooked anywhere else other than the jaw! :D ).

As I mentioned before, the primary surf species I'm targeting is surfperch - you have to admit, they're pretty low on the fighting scale. That's where the fly light tackle really makes sense. It's the saltwater version of crappie or bluegill fishing. Nearly all of the grabs or tugs I've experienced from the surfperch have occurred within less than 10 yds, oftentimes near the tip of my rod if I'm working the shorebreak or sandy flats. Long casts don't really seem to be that essential if I can locate fishy water & beach structure close to shore. As far as casting goes, I've found that 60 ft is typical for the 0-wt using the T8 & 15 lb Amnesia, longer casts to 80 ft for the stiffer rods under relatively calm surf & wind conditions. Casting downwind or across the wind (with the wind blowing into the casting arm) is remarkably achievable with the light outfits. For onshore headwinds above 15 kts, one may as well stay home or look elsewhere to fish.

When properly matched to the rod, I've found that the shorter shooting heads exhibit outstanding sensitivity for detecting the faintest grab or tug. I never realized how many fish I was missing on the swing or during the retrieve until I began fishing with the lighter fly tackle. It's a drastic change from the heavier shooting heads & sink-tip integrated lines (250-350 gr.) I used when I fished with stouter rods early on. There's definitely no problem with staying in touch with the flies when fishing the 3-wt & under fly tackle - the strike response is near-instantanous. One interesting thing I've discovered is that the Amnesia appears to "behave" better with the shorter (lighter) shooting heads, possibly because it doesn't load or wind-up as much compared to the longer, heavier heads used with the stiffer rods (Amnesia behaving in the surf environment - now there's a contradiction!:lol:).

As has been said, to each his own. This style of angling is certainly not for everyone, but it does offer a different approach to tackling a variety of surf species with lightweight fly gear if one so chooses.

thanks again for all the great feedback!8)

Mark

[Flyjunkie]

Mike,.... My note is an inquiry based on info from Marks note. We won't be really sure that the method I described is what is being done until confirmed.... Altho I prefer to figth a fish from the rod, it's not uncommon to stress the rod so much that it must be pointed at a fish to keep the rod from being broken in Baja saltwater fishing. :roll: :roll: :roll:

SOoooo,.... I'm not trying to be judgmental as much as confirm my thoughts on how the method works.... 8) 8)

DARIAN,

I hear where you are coming from on Bowing the rod to the Fish..
However, I think Mike is eluding to pointing the rod directly at the Fish to avoid any pressure on the rod.. I Bow the rod to the Fish in Baja..(watching Neophytes down there doin' the "Orvis Pose" while tight into a red hot Dorado make me Cringe :shock: )
I stay "Down & Dirty" while fighting such fish, never left the rod over my head, always trying to stay at right angles to the fish..

If Mark is only targeting Perch with these Light rigs, and he seems to be cautious with the limits of such light gear I guess it's O.K.

Thought I have afew More Questions for Mark:

a Teeny 150 grain integrated head is for Fast 5 wt rods.. it's an rather Intense Overload for 3 wts. and lighter... How far down into the rod does the flex go with this Overloading??? I'm curious as to this because you mention you have Tendinitis and I am thinking to that overloading such light Rods and having them over-flex might be adding to this aliment of Yours...(The Light rod can't handle the load and transmits it down into your arm...??)

What size Tippet are you using??? I ask this because in Combs' "Bluewater Flyfishing" Trey mentions that 16lb. test can break a 10 wt. rod.. I'd hazard a guess that a 3wt. (or lighter) would be easy to break with 5 lb. test..

When you are Fighting the fish "from the Reel", how do you control the fish??? Without the Leverage of the rod, which is what it's for during the fight, how do you lead or turn the fish during the fight???

Mark, I'm not trying to rip you, it's just that some folks are out there Go way under gunned in their fishing.. I enjoy going lighter But there's a limit to when it basically seems ridiculous and it will do nothing but Harm to the fish, cause you cannot control and lead the fish during the fight...
Hell in the Surf I originally fished with an 8wt... But nowadays I'm mostly fishing a 6wt..(except when the Winter swells are up, then I bump it up to my 7wt...)
I'm there with Paul, when targeting Leopard Sharks, i won't use my 6wt.. you'll never get the upper hand in the fight and all you'll do is get railed and break the shark off... Minimum I'll target Sharks with is my 7wt.. (it's a Sage Rplxi ) , I can control the shark with the 7wt.. I couldn't with anything lighter...

If you are targeting just Surfperch, I'll give you credit there with the 3wts...
Maybe down the road the new technologies will be available to us Flyfishers & I might try a lighter rod in the Surf (a 3wt.) But since the chance to hook something Bigger is always there in the Surf... I'll stick with the trusty 6wt... :wink:

Thought I am enjoying reading your posts about your methods, you certainly are on top of what you are doing.... :)

DEAN ~~ 8) 8)

[k.hanley]

Say Hey Mark,
Perhaps you remember back to when you took my surf clinic (waaaay back before Jay and I taught together). I still believe today, what I presented back then, gear choices for the surf are more about dealing with habitat demands rather than species specifics. In other words my lightest surf rod is a 6-weight. It keeps me in the game longer on any given day. It handles the heavy hydraulics better, it handles the wind better, and it allows me to better adapt to a full range of fly styles to work with (weight and size). Plus, you are certainly able to work with a greater variety of line designs with the 6-weights are larger outfits. Anyway it's fascinating to watch your growth over the years. Stay safe out there buddy. Glad to see you enjoying this great game of the surf!
Cheers, Ken 8)

[Darian]

Hi Dean,.... It sounds like I confused you with the response about pointing the rod at the fish. My point was the same as Mikes. I don't "bow" to the fish when they jump, as a general rule....

I was referring to handilng of fish (Tuna types) in close quarters. Such as, at the boatside when a sudden lunge will place your rod tip against the gunwale if you don't jam it into the water for dampening, avoiding a clash with the gunwale and getting the fish under control. It seems to me that control doesn't occur until the rod comes back into play, under those circumstances. The fish is more directly worked from the reel.

At any rate, If you're playing the fish off the ree;, directly, by pointing the rod at the fish and using a heavy line, there is no consideration of what direction the fish takes. You have the same affect as handlining. The levereage is provided by the crank (gear ratio) and drag on the reel. I guess I don't have to tell anyone here, how effective this method is....

Maybe not as much fun but, if you want to catch some fish for the pot, that's one of the best ways to do it. 8) 8) 8)

Hey Darian,

To answer your question regarding line size, as I mentioned earlier, the Redington RS2 3-wt really feels like a 4- or 5-wt - it's an extremely fast rod & I'm not sure if Redington intended the rod to function that way. The Teeny 150 gr was one of the few lines that worked out beautifully for that rod. SA 8-wt Type IV shooting heads cut back to about 25-ft also work well with this rod. It may sound like these lines would overload the rod, but they barely do! (go figure!) I love the RS2's because they have such fast tapers & shoot heads like cannons - I've yet to find another product that's come close in action to the RS2's. Unfortunately, Redington discontinued the series over a year ago & followed up with the RS3 series which I think is much softer (& forgiving); compared to the RS2's, the current RS3's are closer in action to what they're rated to (the RS3 3-wt actually feels like a 3-wt instead of a 4- or 5-wt).

As far as my tendinitus, I got that years ago when I was fishing 5-wts & up. I typically log anywhere between 600-800 hrs per year in the surf with the fly rod, a few hours here & there, weekends, sometimes mid-week, C&R'ing between 2000-3000 fish annually (about 90-95% surfperch). It all adds up & eventually wears down my arm regardless of how well I can cast or how properly matched the line is to the rod. But I love the sport so much, not to mention the beauty & tranquility of the NorCal coast that goes with it - it's all part of the game.

Consequently, I've been forced to look for alternatives for fly fishing the surf & have gravitated towards the ultra-light rods which have really helped in easing the painful aggravation. I haven't had any problems since I went to the 3-wts & under as far as casting goes. But as you may know, once you get the ailment, it takes a very loooooong time to heal. The muscle tissues are sensitive to any constant or repetitive loading of the forearm, whether from fighting a fish, swinging a golf club (another aggravating recreational activity of mine!) or performing any other task that strains the forearm (heck, even something as simple as picking up a coffee cup can be excruciating!).:cry: That's good enough motivation for me to fish with the light gear & haul in big fish as quickly as possible, whether caught on an 8- or 00-wt. Believe me, after all these years it still hurts my arm like hell whenever a big fish latches on! :(

As I mentioned earlier, I typically use strong & stiff mono for the tippets on a multi-drop leader system:

http://home.att.net/~surf.perch/dropper.jpg


I'll use 10 or 12 lb test mono when casting small flies (#12-16) featuring small-eye hooks. I've used this terminal set-up for the 00- to 8-wt rods & they've performed quite well for me over the past several years. I haven't experienced any problems with the tippets (or big fish) breaking rods as you've described (knock on wood) - I'd be interested to learn more about how these have happened. Sure, I've busted rods through some really dumb operator-induced errors, which may sound familiar to those who've done it before (like leaving the rod/reel on the car top while driving out from the beach parking lot, accidently closing car doors across exposed rod tips, etc..DOH!). I've also had my fair shair of broken rod tips on a variety of 0- to 7-wt rods after they've been whacked by weighted flies numerous times from casting too tightly in breezy weather (the flies basically become high-speed BB's or bullets when you think about it). Talk about putting the kabosh on a fishing trip when no spare rods are available! :(

As far as fighting big fish on the reel, the line system I currently use has been sufficiently strong & versatile to keep the fish from getting into the backing; I've been able to turn heads of some pretty big stripers without resorting to the beach sprints or zig-zags, as others have experienced. As one may surmise, the Amnesia absorbs a lot of the load in the shooting head set-ups. Depending on the rod & reel combo, I'll use anywhere between 60-90 ft of the stuff & it's taken a good steady pull from a few +30 in. stripers before the drag lets out line. As amazing as it may seem, I've yet to have had fish of this size get into my backing on the 0-wt. I don't know whether these fish were just lethargic or maybe just not up to running out past the surfline. Practically all of the stripers I've caught in the surf, whether on a 0- or 8-wt, have grabbed the flies within 10 yds of me - heck, I've even inadvertently kicked or bumped into a few while wading in knee-deep surf along the shoreline during gray light conditions (scared the beejezus out of me!). :shock: But as I've said before, I consider these pretty average fighting fish, pound for pound, compared to other reel-burning saltwater species - in my experience, they're really not that difficult to stop in their tracks. Like many others, I prefer to fight fish with the rod, rather than the reel, but I have to rely on other techniques (similar to Sosin's approach) to subdue the big boys when the occasion calls for it (which is usually quite infrequent).

These are all excellent thought-provoking questions. I'm glad you & others are inquiring. I apologize if I sound a little blunt at times, but I'm trying to convey what I've learned & experienced thus far, even if it goes against the grain of conventional fly fishing wisdom & practice. I posted the original question about 3-wts & under because I haven't read much or talked to anyone about what others are doing outside of the local SF/MB area other than through this & other forums. I'm just absolutely amazed & enlightened at the variety of tackle & techniques many of you are employing for chasing big fish on fly gear, both locally & abroad. I think the majority of fly anglers are gun-shy about trying lighter outfits because of what they may have read or experienced elsewhere. The collective common sense of the angling community seems to be driven by what's written or reported in the field. I grew up fishing in Hawaii (mostly on Oahu) & pursued a variety of gamefish with tackle that the "locals" consider quite normal, such as 2- to 8-lb test spinning outfits, for catching & subduing large bonefish, trevally, ladyfish, skipjack tunas & a wide assortment of other Hawaiian fish. These saltwater species (& others found elsewhere in tropical waters) definitely leave many West Coast fish behind in the dust in terms of overall strength & speed (pound for pound). The early experience I gained in battling these island fish with the ultra-light spinning gear gave me the confidence to experiment with light-weight fly gear. I think it takes this kind of exposure to really comprehend & appreciate the wide scope of what's possible in the fly fishing world. But that's just my own perspective & maybe others can relate.

Otherwise, what angler can resist the undulating bend of a light-weight fly rod, like this 00-wt...

http://home.att.net/~rubberlip.perch/Sep16-06/091606im-39.jpg


...produced by the humble (but often feisty) surfperch that are willing to give a good tug on a fly or two, like these?8)

http://home.att.net/~surf.perch/photos/redtailx3.jpghttp://home.att.net/~redtail.perch/May16-06/051606im-39.jpghttp://home.att.net/~redtail.perch/May16-06/051606im-26.jpg


TL's

Mark

Hey Ken,

Yes I do remember the early days of learning about the surf zone from you. It kind of reminded me of the Obi Wan-Luke Skywalker scene in Star Wars where Obi-Wan is teaching Luke how to use the force to wield a lightsaber with the blast shield helmet over Luke's head. Thank god you didn't make us put buckets over our heads to "feel the grab" & learn the ways of fishing the surf zone! :lol: (though I did wonder when you were going to whip out the lightsaber from your rod tube :lol: :lol: :lol:). Just havin' more fun with ya!

As usual, I think you're right on the money regarding the choice of tackle - the targeted species should dictate the type of gear employed over the prevailing habitat, but the latter is still an important part of determining what fly outfit works best for the environment being fished.

Hope to cross lines with you again sometime, big guy! :wink:

best,

Mark

[lee s.]

MFD,
Note the mention of the spread spool. :wink:
Ya know something? Usually the same guys that can't grasp the requirements to safely and quickly land a fish on light gear (whether hooked on porpose or by accident :wink: ) and look down their noses at those that do and try to instill THEIR views on the issue, are the same persons who will question WHY do you want to toss a 10wt at small LM's when the only real challenge there is to get'em out of the WEEDS....("heck, WE use 7wts for LM's.) :wink:
To each their own. Use the gear YOU desire and learn to use it to it's limitations. Light gear in the hands of a skilled angler is quicker and safer and deadlier only if desired, than a telephone pole in the hands of the inexperienced.
.....lee s.

[Darian]

Hmmmm,.... Ya know, Lee, I've re-read all of the posts on this subject and don't find any real disrepect offered and don't see where Mark has taken it that way. It probably doesn't mean much to you but I'm not sure I agree with the tone of your post.... I do agree with what was already said and respected, "....to each his own."

I was enjoying this discussion and learning something to boot. Instead of trying to cut things off, try to contribute something. Understanding results when discussion takes place. 8) 8) 8)

[jbird]

I believe the over arching message here is this method is suitable for advanced anglers. I also have realized that (which wasnt entirely clear on the original post) that Mark is targetting a species that light gear is adiquate for. When I saw that striper next to that little rod, my original reaction was to cringe, not discounting that it was an amazing catch 8) but that is just too much fish for that rod if that was the intended quarry.
I dont blame him for wanting to match gear to his target...in this case, surf pearch. Sounds like a kickinthepants to me :D

I will add that I also believe it is not a good example to teach or even condone these "big game, light rod" tactics to novice anglers. This technique in the wrong hands equals dead fish, plain and simple.

Jay

PS To all anglers who are relitively new to the sport..."DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!" :wink: When you get into the world of larger fish that require some kind of drag system, play the fish quickly and release them immediately, its better for the fish and it sets a good axample for folks that might be watching. :D

[k.hanley]

Say Hey Mark,
I think you mis-read my response. Or I don't understand yours? I said habitat does first dictate gear choice not the fish. If you can't handle the hydraulics, and the wind, or deliver the various food items, then it doesn't matter what species you are trying to catch. You need to first get the food to the target and keep it there. I firmly believe that habitat concerns just aren't understood well enough by many folks who enter the surf game.

Another important note not being handled in this discussion is the element of leader/tippet breaking strength. It doesn't matter if you have a 12-weight rod or a 3-weight rod in your hands, if your tippet breaks at 6 pounds then it breaks at 6 pounds (nothing can change that fact by varying rod ratings). The difference is most important on how the rod handles heavier tippets and bursts of pressure. A level sustanied load can be handled on very light tackle indeed, but you must be very competent in applying the field techniques necessary to work the light tackle in a manner that doesn't over tax the gamefish.

I respect your journey. As for me, I don't think it's practical for an overall approach (I know you aren't claiming that). As technology advances the strength-to-weight ratio in rods gets redefined, we see that all the time. Where will this technology take you next...who knows?

Personally for now I'll continue to promote 6-weights thru 8-weights as valuable tools for exploring the total surf zone experience along our west coast.
Cheers, Ken (Obi Wan) :D

[PaulC]

I think a bit of the discussion that has also been missin has been the rod ratings. If its a 3wt but feels more like a 5wt, then its a 5 wt.
For instance, some rods can be more stiff in 1 or 2 rod sizes than their competitor. Echo comes to mind.

Rod ratings are definitely relative based on the modulus of the fiber used by the vendor.
My winston 2wt really is a slow-medium 2wt and probably has no place in the surf in my opinion. I have no idea how corrosion resistant it is for the first part.
I've heard the sage 2wts now are much faster and probably could tackle things I wouldn't consider on the winston.

Granted I fish a 6wt in wind where others may opt to go a rod size higher. Its all about what you are comfortable casting with. Being a part-time climber I have the same issues as Mark and try to use the lighter rods when feasible (especially when I'm climbing alot).

That being said, I don't think any of us are looking down our noses at Mark or his adventures. Most of the guys posting in this thread are seasoned anglers in the salt. I know I spend 100+ days a year out there and I'm sure Ken has me beat hands down.
I don't think anyone here posting is "inexperienced".

The scientist in me is curious and having not run this experiment personally all I can do is ask questions.
I hope we can keep the discussion open.
As Darian said, I'm learning something....

-Paul

"The only bad preconception is one that you hold onto"

[Hairstacker]

Lee, I never questioned the requirements to land big fish on light gear. I just didn't think it sounded like much fun if you had to point the rod directly at the fish and play 'em directly off the reel. 'Course, that was before I realized the targeted fish was surf perch. :oops:

In any case, I never meant any disrespect. If I came across that way, I apologize to everyone and especially to Mark. Actually, I have great respect for Mark and his knowledge and abilities -- he's been a true gentleman throughout this discussion and I'm convinced he knows exactly what he's doing. 8)

[Darian]

OK just a couple more questions from me.... :roll: :roll: :roll: Mark,.... I'm confused, somewhere in your posts you mentioned that you use a very strong section of Mono in the system and that way you could pull hard. I assumed that meant the running line but elsewhere in your posts you mention using 15# Amnesia for the running line.... Given the breaking strength of T8 and that of your leader set-up, the Amnesia would be your weakest link. :? :? :? Am I understanding your set-up correctly :?: :?: :?: If so, how do you avoid the hinging affect of using a 13' head; water loading the cast :?: :?: :?:

Hey Ken,

I re-read what we wrote - I think our motivations for tackle selection are on the same course, maybe our interpretations differ. In referring to fish species, I look at it as tuning the tackle to a species' behavior & feeding habits (what triggers the bite response as well as where are the fish feeding in the surf zone), not so much as selecting tackle based on how big the fish are or how much muscle is packed in their body. In tailoring the tackle to a targeted species, the flies or lures must be delivered to where the fish are located under various surf extremes & environments, that includes wave hydraulics, current, bottom structure, etc. To be effective, fly gear & presentation methods should perform optimally where there's a high probability for a successful engagement with the fish, in all depths of the water column when necessary. I think you're saying the same thing, perhaps with more emphasis on selecting tackle that can be used over a broad range of habitats & with sufficient flexibility to deal with multiple fish species, while still stressing the importance of wave hydraulics, current, bottom structure, etc in the tackle selection process. I don't know if I'm still missing your point - it's often easy to overlook the obvious & somewhat difficult to adequately capture our intentions or thoughts in words. My apologies for causing any confusion - I'm basically concurring with your observations & think we have common objectives in making the most out of the surf zone experience (though I'm still thinking about wearing the 5 gallon "Luke Skywalker" bucket over my head the next time I go fishing, Master Ken-obi!) :lol: Good point on rod fatiguing & tippet strength. Long lengths of exposed mono can stretch & absorb shock between the fish & rod/reel quite effectively, as well.


Hey Darian,

On your question regarding the 15-lb Amnesia, your interpretation is correct: the running line is technically the weakest link in the system I described. Dead pulling a 15-lb load on fresh mono running line until it fails can be pretty difficult to do since it stretches so much, especially for long lengths. But it is technically still the weakest part of the line system. When I mentioned the heavy mono earlier, I was referring to the terminal system (butt section, tippet/leader), mostly because a lot of line abrasion & wind-knots occurs there when fishing in harsh, rugged surf environments, at least based on my experience. A lot of folks use light tippets (10 lb & lighter) for a variety of reasons, but I've never really found it necessary to incorporate the lighter line into my terminal tackle. So far, all of my tackle-related break-offs by fish have taken place in the terminal line, never in the 15-lb mono running line (again, knock on wood). The break-off is usually due to straightened hooks, knot failure (windknots especially!) or tippet breakage from abrasion. I don't know if others have had similar experiences. The black Amnesia seems to work best for the local cold saltwater environment - I've found that it's tougher & more resilient than the red or yellow colored Amnesia (don't ask me why that is - an oldtimer recommended the 15-lb black Amnesia to me years ago & I've stuck with it ever since). As with other types of mono, Amnesia can break prematurely where the it's abraided, becomes over-stretched/wiry or is severely nicked - without a doubt, it should be replaced whenever degradation occurs. In any case, the weakest element in the tackle is always the one that gives out when the pressure's on - the line system I've described has worked well for me over the years, but there's certainly room for improvement. I've not encountered hinging problems with 13 ft of T8 on the 00-wt TXL - the head doesn't dump either & wet casts fairly easily also with this rod. T8 lengths that have worked well for my other rods: 16 ft for the 0-wt TXL, 19 ft for the 1-wt TLS, 22-ft for the 2-wt TLS. I don't believe I've tried the T8 on the 3-wts or higher yet.

Thanks again everybody for all the great info - there's so much I still need to learn from you guys!:)

Mark

P.S. I busted another rod tip yesterday, again operator-induced - it was the classic car window Ginzu-crunch for the 00-wt TXL tip section, this time (DOH! DOH! DOH!). Another rod going out for repair... :cry: It didn't help that I also wound up with the skunk for yesterday evening's efforts either! :x

[k.hanley]

Thanks for the clarification Mark. Seems like we are on the same page.
Cheers, Ken

[k.hanley]

"...The black Amnesia seems to work best for the local cold saltwater environment - I've found that it's tougher & more resilient than the red or yellow colored Amnesia (don't ask me why that is - an oldtimer recommended the 15-lb black Amnesia to me years ago & I've stuck with it ever since..."

Though I really don't enjoy Amnesia on most outings, the black line has long been my first choice for this rigging option. The production process of the colored Amnesia (red or yellow/chartreuse) is the difference Mark. The color dye process makes the lines coil more. The black isn't necessarily stronger, but it does "behave" better by offering you a more relaxed line for casting and steady retrieve control. Of course there are variations in commercial bulk production and you could have experienced some stronger batches. Fresh Amnesia is also stronger than older line (exposed to longterm UV, hot/cold, etc).
Cheers, Ken

[bigtj]

I knew a guy who was using 3-wts in the surf for Corbina and surf perch in the early 90's. Can't remember his last name, he was the chief flyfishing designer for Patagonia. Terry something. I can't remember either why he was using those light rods but it was cool seeing a 389LL with a pate trout on it!

Anyway if you know what you're doing I don't see why a 3-wt or lighter will handle those fish no problem. I've seen folks way over fight fish too long with an 8-wt - way past the point of exhaustion - and other folks bring fish to hand very quickly with light gear. I've landed 35 lb kings on noodle rod (conventional gear) w/ 6lb test and it was a blast and didn't take any longer than a fly rod. All depends on the operator and their skill. Surf Perch would be a blast on a 3-wt I'd fish one for them in a heartbeat. In fact a friend of mine just opened a shop up in Carpinteria next time I'm down there I'll bring a light rod.

[lee s.]

I must apologize for the "tone" of my previous post. I just get chaffed when Light rod posts seem to always get the lactic acid kills fish sermon and the inferrence that those that use'em don't give a rip about the fish. I very much wanted to get to the light tippets and the protection of such and the inability to put more pressure with a bigger rod (what Ken said) as being the real contributing factor in the lactic acid build-up. Which in itself (lactic acid) is a very proper issue. Light tippets and not light rods (within logical reason :lol: ) is the culprit, usually, and yet you seldom see the sermon under a tippet querry. :wink:
MFD,
Your tandem system looks interesting. Think it would work for shad? Sometimes it is interesting to "see" if color is a factor with them. :wink:
Your question about running line. 20# black amnesia is the lightest we use. We MOSTLY use 30# and up for bigger troutoids (steel and salmon) and even 40# for albies and blue-water stuff. IF the stretch of amnesia is bothersome to you , there are several other running line products out there that eliminate much of that. We do use the Rio ans SA clear intermediate running line stuff when the wind blows because it seems to have more body and stays in the bucket better.
I like you approach to useing light hooks as a fuse. We sometimes use Aberdeen hooks for that purpose. Are you sure 15# running line is enough though?
I admire you for looking to new challenges. That is what often keeps our sport fresh, inovative, and invigorating. :wink:
.....lee s.

[k.hanley]

Say Hey Bigtj,
That was my good friend Terry Baird. We were experimenting with many different aspects of the corbina game back then. The lighter outfits were for protecting light tippets and small lightwire hooks. Though the lighter outfits limited our presentation choices, which in turn made us feel less capable of "taking advantage of the moment" as the corbina and conditions shifted.
Cheers, Ken

[bigtj]

Ken,

Of course...it was bugging me I couldn't remember his last name! Be sure to say "hello" to Terry for me. I was working in the Patagonia retail store in Ventura at the time I met Terry. Last time I talked to him I think he moved to Portland. Got a raw deal at Patagonia but that's the way it goes sometimes. I'm not sure I've ever met anyone as passionate about flyfishing or as kind of a person. Be sure to say hello to him for me.

Talk to you later,

-John

[k.hanley]

Say Hey John,
Terry is now living in the Hawaiian Islands. I'll certainly pass along a big hello from you. He's still passionate about saltwater FF (focusing on bonefish, giant trevally, and much more).
Cheers, Ken 8)

Ken, thanks for the explanation on the black Amnesia - I do remember hearing something about the coating material being used as a UV inhibitor for the mono. It certainly pays to replace the stuff if it looks like it's starting to degrade.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lee, I've tried the multiple-fly dropper set-up for shad - it seems to get down fairly easily for 7-wts & up in shallow water, usually with the help of a split shot or two. If heavy mono is used, the tippet doesn't quite seem to offer sufficient sensitivity to detect the grabs during the swing (I found this out while fishing the Yuba earlier this year). Thanks for suggesting the Rio & SA clear intermediates - I'll have to look into these running line products & see if they'll work for the lighter fly outfits. I'm curious if these products still need to be stretched before each use (even though they're low stretch lines) & whether they coil when used in cold saltwater (say 55 deg F or less). It's a real chore keeping the Amnesia in the basket when its windy - I often don't use the stripping basket if it's really breezy, though it requires a favorable current to keep the excess line from wrapping or bunching up around my legs when wading in the surf. These running line alternatives may help in that regard. Thanks again!:)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think there are a couple reasons why the 15 lb Amnesia has worked for me (so far) in fighting & subduing large fish (especially stripers) in the surf:

A. Favorable hydraulics. I'll make every attempt to locate & take advantage of favorable surf characteristics when fighting large fish. Shorebound surges & waves usually help in pushing the fish towards up the beach if the rod & reel line simultaneously exert steady pressure. Many of the stripers I've caught from the beach have occurred during the incoming tide, usually right after the ebbtide or just before the peak tide, when the waves & surge usually advance towards shore. Good footwork & timing are critical factors to successfully landing fish with the help of the surf action.

B. Shallow water. I've found that nearly all of the large fish I've caught & landed have struck in relatively shallow surf & within close proximity of the shoreline. The stripers I've encountered along the coast typically fight high up in the water column, even when they've struck in a deep hole, channel or trough. I'm not sure if this is normal for the species - maybe they're more buoyant in saltwater? (air bladders inflate more after they've left their freshwater habitat, perhaps?). Consequently, the tackle has less hydrostatic pressure to overcome, unlike fighting leopard sharks, rays, rockfish & other species that love to hug the bottom & fight like a wet rug with all that water sitting ontop of them.

C. Appropriate fighting form. I feel the amount of pressure exerted on a fish can be properly balanced between the rod, reel & line system in many situations (unless fighting a really big stingray, shark or other large bottom-hugger). In my opinion, the reel drag adjustment should be on the tight side, but there needs to be enough give to accommodate sudden surging runs by the fish. If the running line (say 15-lb Amnesia) is the weakest element in the line system, I'll distribute the load evenly across the tackle until the running line is fully retrieved back onto the reel. In the worst-case scenario where the rod is severely undergunned, pointing the rod tip at the fish & letting the drag fight the fish becomes the last resort (the less-sporty Mark Sosin solution, as previously mentioned in this thread).

Here are a couple photos to help illustrate these points. This +30 in. striped guy was landed a few months back on the 0-wt TXL:

http://home.att.net/~pile.perch/Jun29-06/062906im-8.jpg


This is a shot of the 0-wt taken a few minutes into the fight following the initial hook-up:

http://home.att.net/~pile.perch/Jun29-06/062906im-7.jpg


Several things stand out in the second photo that complement what I've described above:
- a portion of the 15-lb Amnesia running line has emptied from the reel, so most of the load is being shared between the rod & reel (the drag's adjusted so that there's no need to palm the reel, the arm is partly extended to absorb any shock imparted on the rod)
- the incoming tide is producing favorable waves, surge & current that are assisting me in working the fish towards shore (it took about 7 minutes to land this fish)
- the fish is swimming near the surface (at the top of the water column) & within fairly close range of the shorebreak, so the tackle didn't have to overcome much of a hydrostatic load
- I'm wading into the surf to position myself as close as possible to the fish in preparation for back-peddling up the beach once I've retrieved all of the mono back on the reel - then it just became a matter of waiting for the right set of waves & surge to arrive in order to land the fish.

I think it's important to understand that these techniques provide a comprehensive, balanced approach to fishing the surf, whether on light, medium or heavy fly tackle. I just refine the methods to reflect the specific gear I'm using.

Another comment about using small or light hooks in the surf. Although I frequently experiment with small flies, I've been able to successfully land some decent stripers on very small flies - this 26 incher...

http://home.att.net/~walleye.perch/Jul31-05/073105im-9.jpg


...was caught on the corner of its jaw...

http://home.att.net/~walleye.perch/Jul31-05/073105im-8.jpg


...using one of my #14 flies I refer to as the sandhopper patterns...

http://home.att.net/~surf.perch/sandhopper.jpg


...while fishing with a 3-wt Redington RS2 last year. I've found that the smaller hooks tend to embed in the fish's mouth tissue quite easily, depending on the hook style. I'm surprised by the number of fairly big fish that have grabbed & remained latched onto undersized flies that feature the relatively small hooks (#12 & under) - it's sort of like applying nymphing techniques to the surf. Of course, I don't always succeed in landing the larger fish on such scaled-down saltwater fly patterns, but it can be done when favorable surf conditions prevail. As previously explained, small or light-wire hooks can function as effective safety valves in situations when the running line is weaker than the terminal tackle & a quick break-off is required.

These are some of the observations & experiences I've accumulated while experimenting with fly fishing gear over the years. I've used this knowledge to figure out how to formulate an effective strategy for seducing & handling a variety of fish in the surf. Without a doubt, there's lots of room for improvement & refinement - some may find this useful in other angling environments or for targeting other fish species. As always, I appreciate any helpful recommendations & suggestions. :)


Mark

[Adam Grace]

Mark, just a little side note. I like your profile name, very funny!

Thanks, Adam. With the light fly outfits I take to the surf, I often get inquiries regarding the err...umm.. position of my fly :lol: :lol: :lol:

Mark


"Jocularity, Jocularity..." (Father Mulcahy, M*A*S*H)