Which knot?

[SteelieD]

Which knot do you prefer to attach backing to fly line... Albright or Nail? Or something else?

[lee s.]

Albright. Nail knots depend on the integrity of the coating to the core bond of your fly line. Maybe by doubling the flyline before doing the nail knot would be advantageous....?
Would an Albright work for attatching a butt-section to a fly line?
....lee s.

[PaulC]

I've used both albright and nail knots coated with pliobond.
Haven't noticed a failure in either.
I know some guys will tie a bimini in their backing and put a braided loop on the fly line. Basically just a loop to loop to backing and allows a quick switch out if you have a line failure.
Definitely thinking of migrating to that route after getting a line sawed in half on some structure inshore.
Dan Blanton has a good article on his website on making your own braided loops and is what I've been using on all of my fly line to leader connections. Shoots through the guides just fine.
-Paul

[Darian]

Hey guys,.... For anything over 7 weight lines, I prefer a loop to loop connection, as described by paul. However, For freshwater uses, I make the loop in the backing by using a splicing tool to create the loop. Then I finish the splice with a Uni-knot to lock it in place. 8) That creates a very small, almost seamless loop. I use a Bimini for all other loops in the backing. 8) On the butts of lines, I use the braided loop connection. 8) 8)

Haven't converted any of my freshwater lines, yet, but have converted all shooting heads, regardless of weight, preferring the ability to change lines quickly. :) :)

I prefer Plio-Bond for the adhesive as it provides flexibility. I only use UV knot sense for an emergency or temporary bond. :D :D

[PaulC]

Hey Darian,
Thats a cool idea. I'll have to try it on my 2wt & 5wt. 50 lb braided mono is a bit overkill there. :lol:
-Paul

[Sturmer White]

On the heaver outfits I go with the Bimini.On my trout stuff I use a spider hitch with a loop big enough to go around my reel for easy changes.
There is most likely another 50 ways to do it ? :lol:

[flyfshrmn]

For backing to fly line, I use a pin vise to insert the backing through the line core with a fine needle, then tie a needle or nail knot with about 5 turns. It's smooth, low profile and won't break. Doesn't work well with clear (mono) fly lines. For those, I heat the end of the fly line to make a head, then tie a needle knot. The backing won't slip over the headed end of the line, but you have to coat the knot with a clear cement to make a nice taper or risk it hanging up and stripping your guides.

[bigtj]

The double-nail knot is another option. Strip off about 4 inches of the coating from the fly line and then tie opposing nail knots. This is much stronger than a regular nail knot and less bulky by far than an albright. That being said, the best part of an albright is that you can tie it anywhere without a tool. So I recommend learning the albright to use in a pinch, then pick your favorite loop to loop, double nail, needle or whatever for when you can tie the knot in controlled conditions.

Personally braided loops have failed far too many times for my comfort, as have epoxy loop splices. My favorite loop for the fly-line end is a "served" loop with thread coated with loon knot sense. If you serve up ~1 inch of fly line core and coat it with this gule it will last for many, many years and never pull out. For the backing end I use the cordland loop maker. Very close to a bimini for strenth and if you make it long enough you can "loop" it over the reel allowing you to change flylines easily.

[Darian]

Braided loops failed :?: :?: :?: I suppose that's possible but I haven't experienced a single failure in two trips to Baja hooking and landing numerous Dorado well over 20# and Black Skipjack. Hooked up several other large fish that I never saw and broke my leader 20 # tippet but not one failure at the loop.

How are you installing these loops :?: :?: :?: Ive been using the method shown on Dan Blantons website and later modified to the method shown me by Jay Murakoshi.... I have complete confidence that, barring defect in the materials, I could tackle Sails on this set-up. 8) 8) 8)

[bigtj]

Waring: following reply is opinionated from a crusty old guide who has to work for a living now and has nothing better to do but argue about silly points that have no right or wrong answer. And besides if you aren't fishing for really big strong fish the information doesn't apply anyway!

Anyway...for those who didn't heed my warning....I realize everyone has difference experiences, and for those who really like those braided loops, I say "more power to you". I'm honestly saying I have seen braided loops fail over and over, whether put on by a guy at the fly shop, a person on their own, even ones I have done (I worked in fly shops for 10 years and guided for eight years and know how to put a briaded loop on). The loops I am talking about are not the kind on Blanton's web page, I'm talking about the stock ones you get from Orvis that you use super glue and shrink tubing with. That is the braided loop that 99% of the folks out there are going to think of, or use, when someone says "braided loop". I think it is an OK design for some applications but not enough, IMO, for really "serious" conditions. That chinese finger cuff thing just slides right off.

Blanton's website shows the way I used to make those braided loops, and the key to the attachment is that nail knot with 12 lb. test. But I don't trust that nail knot connection, either, as I have had those nail knots fail - only rarely - due to the fly line core slipping - so I still don't trust them. The only way I've found to make 100% sure a braided loop stas on is to "serve" them up with thread, using a bobbin and spinning the thread around the fly line at high speed, for about an inch and a half over the loop followed witha generous coat of glue.

Keep in mind the conditions I've seen orvis style braided loops fail in are pretty wimpy, while the Blanton-method is much, much more extreme. For saltwater the loops are probably fine; a dorado, sailfish or whatever will run harder than a salmon but won't put near as much pressure on a line as a 45 lb. king in a 7 mph current wrapped around a root wad or a big rock; because there isn't anything for a Dorado to get hung up on. When river fishing for big salmon or steelhead, you have to be prepared with a connection that is as strong as the fly line because of all the junk in the water you sometimes have to really reef on the line much harder than you would with the drag setting on a reel.

When you are using the fly line core as your loop, you are automatically guaranteed that the connection is as strong as the fly line, as long as you do a good job "serving" up the loop. My experience says that braided loop connections (the connection, not the loop; the loop is stonger than the line unless damaged) are sometimes not as strong as the line, so I'm not willing to chance it anymore. I also think the loop is too "floppy"; a doubled-over fly line core is much stiffer expecially when coated with knot sense or epoxy. Oh, yeah, unless you make your own they also cost way too much for what you get. But that's just my view so take it for what it's worth.

By the way the question was asked, can an albright be used to attach a leader to the fly line? The answer is yes, absolutely. I do it for all my spey lines, since the knot never goes into the guides on those rods, and frequently for my saltwater lines or trout rods in a pinch, again because you can tie it without any kind of a tool - a big advantage streamside. I usually coat this knot with loon knotsense though as it is pretty darn bulky.

[Jgoding]

You guys make it too complicated.... I just put in 2-3 over hand knots and it holds nice.... :o

[Darian]

Hmmmm,.... I have no reason to doubt that you're being honest. Sorry if I gave that impression.....

I concur that commercial braided loops are not as good as those custom made.... However, I've never experienced a failure on one of those, either. There's always "more than one way to skin a cat" and more than one way to install a braided loop. 8) 8) 8) I used to install commercial loops by finishing with the serving thread you mentioned, as well. I don't bother with that on my custom saltwater loops. The catch or trap not works quite well for that purpose. 8) 8) 8) I must say that I've never used the shrink tubing that comes with the comercial models, either. I don't trust that method any more than you do. :?

I'm not sure that I agree that a fighting Salmon in a river (current) is tougher than fighting pelagic, saltwater fish of the same weight. In an ocean tidal current such as that around Isla Cerralvo, any pelagic species is harder to land IMHO. Lotsa stuff ti snag on out there, too (e.g boat motors, shark bouy tethers, Sargasso, etc.) I base my statements on my own personal experiences in SoCal/Baja saltwater fishing and many years fishing Salmon in coastal estuaries from southern Oregon to the SF Bay area and many valley rivers. 8) 8) 8)

One good thing about BB's like this one is that reasonable people are able to disagree for a learning experience. :D :D

[jbird]

One good thing about BB's like this one is that reasonable people are able to disagree for a learning experience.



Beautifully stated Darian :wink:

I am in the same camp as TJ. I have had some braided loops fail as well. I havehad many hold just fine too. I am not into losing flylines so I like an albright. I finish the albright by back wrapping the tag end of backing around the standing backing. Like finishing a bimini twist. I have never had one of these fail. If its tied right, the flyline would have to break to lose the knot.
With shooting heads I use the loops. Theirs really no realistic alternative.

A quick story.....I was in canada last fall fishing the harrison river. While pulling line off the reel to make a cast, a loop hung around the reel handle and when I pulled, the running line snapped (plastic coated rio running line) I looped the line over itself and tied in two nail knots with 12# mono to secure it. That loop held all day against many angry chum salmon. I was very suprised at the strength of that simple fix. When we got back to camp, I wraped the loop with a hundred or so wraps of kevlar thread and finished it with a little glue.

The point of the story is, I wont be afraid to make a loop like that again in a pinch.

J

[bigtj]

Darian,

Very well stated you are a good man.

You make a good point about ocean current, yes it's strong, but I still think you have less of a chance to get hung up in saltwater. I stand by my statement that it's more common in river fishing to put more pressure on the line than in saltwater due to hang ups. The reason is the current can cause the line to wrap around stuff in a river much more commonly than in saltwater, and there is usually more junk to get hung up on; in fact, I think that it's about a 50/50 chance that you will get hung up on a prolonged boat chase. On the Kanektok, where I guided, there is a ton of junk in there, the water isn't near as deep as the ocean. So the odds are really, really good that if youstring out 75 yds of backing and 30 yds of fly line out in the current and let it drift for 300 yds before you can catch up to the fish with a boat chase, that line is going to get hung. Once it get wrapped, regardless of having the fish or not, unless you get lucky and do a quick 360 around the snag with the boat, you are going to get majorly hung. Then you have to pull much, much harder on that line to try and get it back than you would if you were simply fighting it on the drag. I've seen folks pull so hard to get their lines back they have broken fly lines, that's something like 30 lbs. tensile strength. I bet you have never seen that in saltwater! This situation occurs much less infrequently in saltwater - or in river fishing for salmonids smaller than 20 lbs or away from the ocaen because most of the time you are fishing in deeper water than in a river, or in the case of the smaller/more tired salmonids, you can control them. Sure if you are reef fishing or something you can shear off a line on coral but it's not like some rivers where you can get hung up at any time. So when you are fishing in a river you need to be prepared for this situation, and in my mind that means an albright, a "severd" loop, a good quality braided loop (not the orvis ones) or a double nail knot. Anybody who is taking a "trip of a lifetime" to fish for Kings or big steelhead in AK or BC would help themselves by being prepared for these condtions. Otherwise plan on bringing an extra fly line as backup, you might need it.

Best regards,

-John

[Darian]

Hey John,.... True enough, there're a lot more snags and less depth in a pool in a river than in the open spaces.... Sure makes it interesting, tho. :D :D

Your point about preparation is really good. If you pay to go on the trip of a lifetime, it pays top do all of the advance preparation that you can no matter the destination. 8) 8)

Get out there and catch some fish 8) 8) ,

Darian

[bigtj]

Darian,

Thanks for the kind words. As luck would have it, I'm taking my Sage glass rod and my pfluger medalist across the street after work to see if I can catch a trout or two of of the Truckee.

Talk to you later,

-John