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Matt Frey
07-18-2006, 02:35 PM
Hey Guys,

I have a number of bead head related questions for discussion.

I have been tying a lot of flies the last few days and I noticed that I had been tying a lot of them with bead heads. I was talking to a friend and he is anti bead head. He thinks that many times the bead head will scare the fish instead of attract them. He has the same theory about flashbacks but we can save that for another thread.

I like to use bead heads as a way to weight the fly, because I hate using so much split shot. On some flies I use weight on the underbody instead of a bead head but on some flies this isn’t possible (ex: Fox’s poopah) and also it adds thickness, which I don’t really like. I also tie my Prince Nymphs with bead heads most of the time. So my question is do you like to use bead heads or not and why?

I was also wondering what colors of bead heads you prefer? I was reading something about black bead heads looking more natural. On my olive colored nymphs I tend to use copper, because I guess I like how it looks, but if the fish likes how they look is a different question. On most others I stick to gold. Any method to the madness of matching colors?

And finally … what size of beads to use on which size of hooks? I normally use 1/8 on a size 12 hook and 3/32 on a size 16, but as the hooks get smaller I am at a loss on what size of bead heads to buy. They all look so small in the packaging it’s hard to tell until you have them next to a hook at the tying table.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks.

Dustin Revel
07-18-2006, 03:53 PM
one day last year i put this to the test BH fox's Poopah vs. Fox's poopah and the regular Fox's poopah won by a land slide the bead head was a copper bead. I'll bet if you used a black bead the results would be different probably the same as a non beadhead poopah. i was fishing the lower sac we caught well over 40 fish that day with the overwhelming majority being caught on the fox's poopah. It probabaly depends on a lot of things for example water temperature, how much food is available, light, etc.
my 2 cents.
Dusty Revel

P.S. my results were from a single day of fishing to be more accurate i should have tried to repeat it.

Darian
07-18-2006, 06:49 PM
Wow!!! What a bunch of questions.... Where to start :?: :?:

The answer to the question of whether to use a bead headed fly or not depends entirely on what is catching fish. 8) The same answer would apply to the choice of the color of beads used. 8) In my own tying, I don't use charts in choosing which size bead to applies to a particular size hook. I tend to eyeball proportions and make a choice. 8)

As to the choice of whether to weight a hook shank with lead or other wire, there are alternatives that still allow addition of weight while maintaining a slim body profile. For example, flattening the lead wire before wrapping the hook shank. Another is to purchase a heavier model of the style hook used for tying a particular pattern. 8) 8)

I concur that the choices are dictated by a number of conditions, environmental and otherwise. Chief among which is what the fish want unless you're tying for display. :) :) :)

Dustin Revel
07-20-2006, 09:28 PM
Carl,
I tie at least half of my nymphs with bead heads. my results were from one day on one river using one fly. my result were not meant as a gemeral judgement of bead heads. my point is that copper or gold might not be the best color for a caddis pupah. I believe that black may be more appropriate. with other patterns this varies for example Mercer's micro may with a copper bead works great.
Dusty Revel

Brad Blancett
07-20-2006, 10:10 PM
My resent results have all been with Black beads and black tungston beads . However in the past I used Copper or Brass beads with no preference to bead or no bead . When I am nymphing there is always a fly on with a bead ! I need to get to the bottom .

Hewie
07-20-2006, 10:12 PM
Take my response for what it's worth, cuz I'm definitely a rookie. I tie the following:
3/16" sz.4
5/32" sz.8
1/8 " sz.12
7/64" sz.14
3/32" sz.16
5/64" sz.18
These came from checking bead sizes in the fly bins at Bill's and the Reno Fly shop . My tying repertoire is limited to the very basic needs, but I tie nearly everything in BH and standard versions.

Water conditions and how I'm using the fly are the only dictators I use when deciding which version to fish. If I need to get down, I use a BH. A dropper off a nymph, wet, or streamer is never a BH. A dropper off a dry may or may not us a BH, depending on water flow.
Again, I'm a rookie, but that's my approach.
Dave

jbird
07-20-2006, 10:47 PM
I like beadhead nymphs. The bead, for me, isnt necessarily to get the fly down. I'll wrap lead for that. I think they add a character to the profile of a fly, as well as a little flash. I have found beadhead flies outfish nonbeadheads for rogue steelhead....big time.

Jay

Dustin Revel
07-21-2006, 12:08 AM
i see where you could make that assumption. by any chance could you post a few pictures of your favorite salmon flies or provide a recipee. I have tried to catch salmon on the lower sac on a fly with no success.
Dusty Revel

Adam Grace
07-21-2006, 12:47 PM
I fish beaded nymphs in faster water when the trout don't have much time to decide wether or not to take my fly. In slower water, like spring creeks, I do no like the unnatural extra shine of a bright bead, maybe black or an olive would not be that bad. I try to stay more natural looking when fishing for the more finicky the fish.

Dustin Revel
07-21-2006, 11:15 PM
Carl,
thanks, and wow.... alot of beautiful flies.
Dusty Revel

Adam Grace
07-22-2006, 12:20 PM
Carl, I didn't say that it was engraved in stone....unless told that flashy flies work I try to use the most natural looking pattern possible when fishing slower more technical waters.

Thanks for telling me about your experience......I'm guessing that the Sparkle PT wasn't tied with a bead...or was it?

Jgoding
07-23-2006, 09:50 AM
personally I shy away from shiny metal bead heads.... not to say they may or may not work...but I just never got why you would tie a beautiful fly with a big old ugly round shiny a$% head. I like black or grey nickel/tungsten beads though, as long as they're the small ones...

Jeff

steve sullivan
07-23-2006, 12:30 PM
I think your friend is wrong to think that they scare the fish. The fish might ignore it where they would take a non bead.

That being said, have you ever thought of using tungsten wire? The stuff is small as heck, and heavy!!

Also, was the bead head first or second (point or dropper)? I would think fish would take the last fly, especially if you tie you dropper onto the bend of the point hook.

Next time add a third fly, a bead head, to the bottom. Try both a gold and a black. Personally I would suggest a black head since caddis pupae have black heads <shrug>

Have you tried luster plus nylon?

Darian
07-23-2006, 12:56 PM
After reviewing all of the comments so far, it seems to me that Carl says it best in the last sentence of his post, "To each his own...."

IMHO (....and as I said in my original post), give 'em what they want. Unless you're only interested in fishing and not catching. If you're not catching anything and you're sure there're fish available, change what you're doing until you find out what the fish want. 8) 8) 8)

Jgoding
07-23-2006, 01:11 PM
Hey Carl you hit it right on the head... especially with the tungsten beads I like..... 10 beads for like $5.25... what a rip...

Matt Frey
09-19-2006, 07:32 PM
I was reading The Fly Shop's report today and it had this, which made me think of this thread:

The main fly has been Fox's Poopahs, Fox's Poopahs, and more Fox's Poopah's. Beaded and non-beaded both working, but non-beaded seems to be working best.

Any theories on why this is the case? Something to do with flows? water clarity? time of year? or the more than likely answer "that's just what the fish are eating"

02-04-2007, 07:09 AM
I was just thinking yesterday about tying beadheads in reverse. The weight up front makes the fly nose dive and if you are trying to mimic a caddis pupa which are actually shooting for the surface wouldn't you want the fly to ride nose up? I was just reading through old threads and saw this one and it occured to me that the fly that people repeatedly say works better without a beadhead is the Fox Poopa. I wonder if the bead leads to an unnatural head down presntation? :?

Darian
02-04-2007, 11:02 AM
Swisher/Richards described "invertebrate drift" in their book, "Emergers". This event, apparently, occurs daily but is largely unrecognized by many fly fishers. :? :? The invertebrate mentioned in the book is a Caddis Worm. The authors claim that Caddis Worms drfit head down.... 8) 8) SOOooo, during the drift, I guess a head down position is not unnatural after all. 8) I've tried some Caddis flies tied in this manner with some success. I've had a lot of success using a small Midge or Mosquito pattern tied in reverse.

From personal experience, if a beadhead is tied on a fly, it will sink with the head down whether tied at the bend or at the eye of the hook.... :? :? Unless you intended to tie the bead in as a weighted rear end, the flies attitude would be unaffected. :? :?

Bob Scheidt
02-04-2007, 08:50 PM
One of the posts above list a 7/64 size bead for a size 14. That is a great fit, really looks good. Many shops carry the 3/32 then the 1/8, but not the 7/64.

Try the pearl white bead for caddis, something different. It is a Spirit River bead. Will it catch more fish, probably not, but fun to try different stuff.
Bob

Ed Wahl
02-04-2007, 09:50 PM
All I can offer is my own experience with bead heads. I shied away from them for many years because they just don't mimic anything trout eat. How many caddis or any other bug have you found that has a large shiny bulbous head? Not a one. I tried a bead head prince once out of desparation once, and HOLY CRAP! Seems there's more to getting a fish to bite than imitating natural food. I once spooked a small run on a small Brookie stream by catching a couple fish out of it, then I lost my fly in a tree,(I know, you guys are experts and never have to deal with that, but it's just S.O.P. for me on small streams). Anyway, after spooking the hole and losing my fly I put on a B.H. prince and put it in there. Now, this is shallow, gin clear water, and I can see every inch of it. When I dropped in the bh prince the fish came screaming back out from under logs and rocks in a mad rush to get the thing. When fishing's pretty dead it's turned into my go-to pattern, even though it resembles nothing in nature. To assume the fish see it as something natural in my opinion insults the fish, heck, they see as well underwater as we do in the air. There's something intangeable going on that defies our logic. Look at what the spin guys are using, Mepps, Panther Martins, REPalas, castmasters....... if you think trout see them as minnows then you have to think trout are severly retarded. I think bead heads just tap into that unknown trigger inside the pea sized brain of trout to make them chase it down and bite it. If this was all quantifiable and logical it would'nt be any fun any more, would it? God I love these slow time of the year topics. Ed

02-05-2007, 07:55 AM
DArian,
You are right the Caddis Worm or Larva co migrate downstream on a regular basis. But the pattern that seems to not work as well in a beadhead is the Fox Poopah. I don't have any experience trying this pattern with or without beadheads but I assume that the Poopah is trying to mimic a Caddis Pupa, not a Caddis Larva. I would propose that if you are fishing a caddis hatch and the fish are taking emerging pupa which encase themselves in bubbles and then shoot to the surface. In this presentation I would think that the head down aspect of a beadhead Poopah would look unnatural. Now if you are fishing a larva pattern I would assume a head down beadhead would work better. I wonder how well the rock cased caddises can keep their heads down though when they migrate. I would guess that the rocks in their cases would make them float butt down bu perhaps the larva fill the case with gas bubbles before starting their drift.

Here is a great link to info on trout food and its behavior: http://www.flyline.com/entomology/

Ed,
I can't agree more that the impressioninstic flies that look like nothing can catch the most fish. I've been using the same "look at what lures catch" analogy for a long time. In the current Issu of Fly Fisherman magazine (I think?) there is an article on Go2 Nymphs which don't look like anything but they look like they would catch fish. Real flashy, should be good for pocket water. I would assume that the white wing might look like air bubbles on rising nymphs or swiming caddis females. I've tied a bunch and can't wait to try them out.