Leader Systems....

[Darian]

The prior topic, involving the twisted leaders prepared by Leo Guttierez brought to mind that this subject was discussed in a prior post involving a variety leader styles/systems. 8) (That post was, "Loreto Leaders for Dorado and, etc.", dated 6-7-05).

In that and the latest post Leader systems from as simple as butt/tippet sections to as complicated as twisted butt/tippet leaders were discussed. In the earlier post, Gary Graham, Baja on the Fly, mentioned using a butt section to a 20# test, tapered leader for a class tippet/bite section leader. 8) Gary accomplishes this by reversing the taper and tying a "small bimini" in the tippet end. Then attaching the bimini by loop to loop to the butt section. Simple but effective with no knot between bite/class tippet. 8) 8) I haven't used this system, as yet but it does seem to have potential.

I've used the twisted leaders in practice sessions but not on the water. I can say that this sytem will turn over a large fly, even in the wind, provided that you don't add too much length in your tippet. 8) 8)

In the latest post, there is concern that the actual pound test of the twisted leader may exceed the core strength of the line itself. :? :? I've had some questions about this, myself. My initial thoughts are that this leader system is only as strong as it's weakest point (like a chain). In a twisted leader using only a doubled section of material, the loop end is still a single strand. Therefore, if the material is 20# test, the leader will be 20# test. If the twisted section is doubled, I'm not sure what the pound the actual pound test of the leader is. :? :? The loop is double stranded. Assuming the knot at the butt end of the twist is a double or triple surgeons, this becomes a very stretchy/strong leader system 8) 8)
that could easily exceed the pound test of the fly line itself. :( :(

I guess the question that arises for me is, what is the optimal pound test to use in the construction of a twsited leader :?: :?: My assumption is that most everyone would want the weakest point in your line leader system to be in the leader. 8) 8) 8)

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated :D :D :D

[larsj]

I would be interested in a how-to on how to make those furled leaders.. (the ones you can make on the boat!). Sounds like something I should add to my tackle repertoire. :)

regards, --Lars

[Darian]

Hey Lars,..... The leaders prepared by Leo are constructed using twisted leader material, This twist is accomplished forming an unknotted loop halfway up the leader material by gripping it with the thumb and forefinger of (in my case) the left hand and extending into the palm . The two strands of material must cross over each other inside the grip point and will be left on the outside of the hand so that they will pull thru the grip point at aproximately 90 degrees to each other (like the start of a haywire twist).

The next step is to gasp the loop in the thumb and forefinger of the right hand and rotate/twist the matreial while pulling it thru the original grip point to accomplish twisting. The amount of twisting required will be dictated by the length of the two strands to be twisted.

When the strands are completely twisted, tie a stout loop knot in the end of the leader. I always use a double or triple surgeons loop here. As long as the tension on the twisted section is not released, the material will not un-twist. This is assured by tying the loop knot in the ends. 8) 8)

Hope I didn't make this more complicated than I needed to. :roll: :roll:

As I understand it, A truly furled leader is much more of a weave than a twist and, as such, is not a twisted leader IMHO. 8) 8)

[Darian]

Bill's guide is titled, "FLY CASTING SYSTEMS". I support Carl's suggestion and have both the guide and CD. 8) 8)

In the guide, Bill's e-mail address is billsknots@aol.com. you can purchase the book, CD or both (as I did). The information obtained is well worth the money. :D :D :D

[Leo]

Hey Darian
I have been trying to post a reply for the past few days without any success until just now. Problem with trying ro remember my password. The tip of the leader where the bite is tied on is 20# and should break right at 20#. It does not, because of the efficiency of the "no name knot". With five turns it is almost like a nail knot and the effect is that the bite is also pulling on the two 20# legs and is some way strenghtened. The leader system has been tested on Kienes knot machine and breaks anywhere between 23 to 27 lbs. This leader system is not designed for IGFA is is just a helping hand for a begining salt water fly fisherman to have a better chance to land a large fish. Hope this helps answer any questions.
Leo

[Jay Murakoshi]

Darian,

I've been using the furled leaders alot lately. It definitly helps turn over the fly. I've sat here trying to construct the furled leaders for the trip this week, actually tomorrow but nothing is working, just like my desktop computer. I hate working off a lap top.

I've been getting my leaders from a guy in Texas but he's out of country right now, so it's back to using straight 20lb leaders

The weather in La Paz has definitly changed. It's around 105 with scattered thunder showers off and on. The winds blow in the morning and afternoons. Some days it's a tough ride to get to the island, even to scout for dorado. More roosters along the beaches right now.

Can't wait to get on that plane. I'll be posting from the hotel or the coffee shop. Got the new Nikon digital coming along on this trip

Jay

[JerryInLodi]

Jay, we've been blown out here in Mulege for the last two days as well. Actually my boat can take it, I cannot. We're going out this afternoon at 4 since it seems the water is lying down and should be down again tomorrow. It's supposed to really kick up some wind and waves on Friday.

You might take a look at

http://www.tempbreak.com/index.php?&cwregion=ml

for ocean surface temperatures. The water here in Mulege has been too hot to swim in at 86-87 degrees. The wind has dropped the temperature dramatically about four degrees and I'm hoping that the Dorado will move back in. Last week it was necessary to go out 25 miles to find fish but once there, there were schools of thousands.

[Darian]

Jay,.... You might want to consider the twisted leader system down there. For quick/efficient preparation, a twisted leader can't be beat. I'm a relative beginner at it and can construct a working Butt section in a little over 15 Minutes. A more complicated butt section takes a little longer and some additional equipment. 8) 8) 8) It sounds like you're really gonna have a good trip. :D :D Wish I was going too.... :) :)

Leo,.... Thanks for the info on breaking points but what is a "no-name knot" :?: :?: Your description makes it sound like an Allbright knot. :? :?

[Darian]

Let's bring this one back up to the top and see if we can generate more comments/information.... See, also, the comments by Lee Haskins on furled leaders in his post (7/19). 8) 8) 8)

[Jay Murakoshi]

darian,

I've been using the furled leaders all week. Great for turning over the big flies.

the fishing has been pretty good for some, ok for others. Alot of BIG dorado are breaking off. huge roosters have been seen, hooked and broke off.
I just viewed the weather. It's suppose to be 102 to 104 degrees with isolated thunderstorms tomorrow and friday. Let's see lightning and graphite rods, what a combination

Going to town to have some Rancho Viejo

Jay

[jbird]

Jay

The forcast for the rogue valley is 108 friday, 111 saturday...enjoy the cool weather down there. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Jay

PS. Loved Rancho Viejo :wink:

[Darian]

Sure sounds like you're getting some good fishin'.... Large Roosterzzzzz!!!!

Not sure about the heat, tho. !02 - 104 degrees on the water in an open Panga. :? :? WHEEEEeeew!!!! I'm stickin' with early June for my trips. :D :D :D (guess I'm turning into an ol' fart....)

[Rick J]

The connection knot Leo is using is essentially a 5 turn clinch knot - through the leader loop, make 5 turns around the leader and come back through just above the loop in a loop formed between the bite and the leader. At least I think that is what he showed us at TCL

[Darian]

Rick or anyone,.... The connecting knot I saw demo'ed at Kiene's looked to be similar to the one you describe. I'm going to try to describe it here. If my understanding is incorrect, please let me know.

The class or bite tippet was inserted into the loop and wrapped 3-4 times around/up one side of the loop. Then crossed over to the other side of the loop and wrapped around/down it 3-4 times. The knot was closed by pulling on both parts of the tippet and the twisted leader, simultaneously. 8) 8) The end result is something that looks a little like an Albright knot. :) :)

Combined with the stretch built into the twisted portion of the leader, this knot appears tp be very strong. :D :D

[Rick J]

Hi Darian
That isn't the knot that Leo showed us but sorta sounds like a slim beauty except you are wrapping the bite around the tippet rather than the class tippet around the bite?

When you wrap back down do you thread back through the leader loop or between the bite and the leader?

[sculpin]

You guys have got me scratching my old bald head :lol: How are you building these twisted leaders without a gig ?

Thanks Mark

[Rick J]

Hi Mark,
Darian explains it pretty well further up in this thread.

What is important when twisting is to keep the two strands separated - Leo puts one strand over his shoulder to keep it away. As you are twisting, the untwisted strands really start to twist and can get tangled so you need to pause periodically and while still holding the portiuon where they have come together , stretch the two strands separately to get the twist out of them. Much easier to demonstrate than to describe but you can make up a 5 to 7 foot butt section in just a few minutes.

[Leo]

Darian
Your leader kit and samples are on the way, email or call me if you have any questions. Lee's suggestion on going down to 15 lb material is a good one and I will try to get the breaking strength on it on Kiene's knot maching with his permission.
Leo

[Darian]

Hmmmm,.... Thanks to Leo for his help and materials, etc.!!!

Guess I confused everyone with my last description of the knot. :? :? :? This knot is the connection between the loop at the end of the twisted leader and the class tippet. Altho, I like to use loop to loop connections, this knot is easy/quick to construct.

Think I might need a sketch to help explain it..... 8) 8) 8)

[Darian]

OK guys,.... After reviewing the materials and leaders from Leo, I've incorrectly described the No Name Knot. :oops: However, I have accurately described the knot I saw demo'd at Kiene's. :? :? I think the difference was that the knot demo'd was for a light leader for Trout fishing. 8)

Anyway, the No Name Knot looks similar to an Albright. Tippet material is inserted into the connector loop and wrapped around both legs up to 7 times. The remaining part of the tippet is then brought down and run between that part of the tippet originally inserted and the two legs of the loop, itself (do not return this part of the tippet back thru the loop). If done correctly, when the knot is tightened, the tag end of the tippet will stick up at a 90 degree angle to the knot. 8) 8) 8)

Again, a very strong and easy to tie knot. :D :D :D Time to put this stuff to use. :D :D :D

[Leo]

Hey Darian
Just got back from Kiene's today and ran some preminilary breaking tests on his knot machine. Test material was Berkeley Trilene XLVS17 17LB .015 ave diameter. Tied leaders and used 50LB Jinkai for bite.
Test #1 Leader broke at tip of bite at 19lbs
#2 " " " " 19 lbs
#3 Leader broke at the 4 turn knot (knot must not have seated correctly because this section should be 68lbs.)
#4 Leader broke at Bite at 20.5lbs (I think the Jinkai finish might not be hard enough, I usually use Ande or Stren.)
#4a used same leader, broke at tip at 17lbs
#5 Leader broke at tip of bite at 20lbs
#6 " " " " 20lbs
Need to run these tests again with another brand with a harder finish and maybe a slightly larger diameter as the butt section seemed a little small.
Anyone interested in a leader kit and a sample just email me your address and I will mail it to you.
Leo

[Darian]

So,.... The test does tend to confirm the increased breaking strength of the twisted system but not as much as I had thought it might. I'll be very interested in the results of the next round of tests. So far the breaking strength averages somewhere around 2.7 # heavier than the listed # test of the leader material.... 8) 8)

[Darian]

OK guys,.... I know you guys are getting sick and tired of my questions but please bear with me on this.... :? :? :?

After looking at and thinking about the samples (the tapered, twisted sections), I have a few more questions for Leo Guttierez....

In the longer leaders, there're two twisted sections; one smaller diameter than the other. Their lengths appear to be equal.

First, what is the purpose of the smaller diameter, twisted section added to the butt section :?: :?:

Second, what knot do you use to join the two sections :?: :?: (....It doesn't look like a "no name knot". :? :? )

Third, if a twisted section may be partially doubled and re-twisted to create a heavier butt section, why choose to make two individual sections of differing diameters and join by knotting them together. :?: :?:

Finally, in the partially doubled, twisted leader, one length is shorter than the other (I've seen diagrams of this but no info about the required knot). What knot would be used to tie off the shorter length to the main/standing length :?: :?: :?:

Thanks to all and Leo in particular for any responses.... :D :D :D

[Leo]

Hey Darian
I will try to answer your questions in the order that they were asked.
First... They are not equal, the butt section is longer than the mid section. There is also a 50lb bite section tied on to one of the leaders to show you what the finished no name knot looks like when finished. The heavy butt section is the mass that is needed to turn over extremely large and wet flies and poppers for sails and other critters.
Second... If you look at the instruction sheet you will see that the knot that joins the 2 sections of the leader is the four turn over hand knot that is used to finish the leader. The no name knot is used to tie in the bite at the tip anywhere from 30-40lbs for dorado and baby tarpon and 80-100lbs for sails and larger tarpon.
Third... In making the leader after the initial twisting of the 20ft of mono it is then divided approximately into thirds. Two thirds is doubled over to form the butt and the balance is left for the mid section where the bite is tied to the tip with the no name knot.
Finally... If you look at the instruction sheet 6 lines from the bottom, you will see the instructions to tie the 4 turn overhand knot at the junction of the 2 strand and 4 strand twist. (tie the knot on the 4 strand section) Pull slightly to set knot, lubricate, wrap the sections around fingers several times and jerk to seat the knot.
Hope this helps you, if not, let me know when you can make it to Kiene's
and I will meet you there and give you a personal session.
Leo

[Darian]

Guess I oughta do something I always advise others to do. Read the d___ text!!!! I got caught up in playing with the samples and glossed over the reading materials. :oops: :oops: One good thing about all of this is that it seems to have raised the level of awareness/interest in this system....

Incidentally, I discovered, inadvertantly, that four strands may be twisted in the same manner that two can. 8) Not sure, but it looks like that method may produce a slimmer profile.... :? 8) 8)

Gotta go now. More new stuff to try out. 8)

Thanks again Leo,

Darian

[Lee Haskin]

Darian

I appreciate your interest in this leader system. It is a winner! (Thanks Leo!)
You don't fight the memory of the single strand mono, which is a big plus too.

You can customize it for many different situations (i.e. short leader for stripers, longer for tarpon, etc.) You can also vary the length of the butt section too. I guess what I am saying is that since you are making it by hand, you can experiment. 8)
It might be a great leader for big trout streamers too, with lighter test!

John Quigley sent me some mono leaders that were made on a jig, using multiple strands of 4 and 6# test. They are absolutely beautiful. No knots of any kind, with a perfect taper. I am anxious to test them in Mexico next month on tarpon. :wink:

Cheers,
Lee

[Darian]

I'm trying to identify the differences (positives/negatives of each) between twisted and furled leader systems. Does anyone know how much time it takes to build/make a furled leader using jig :?: :?: Also, are these jigs custom built or are they available commercially :?: :?:

I've read some references to furled leaders constructed of "...thread...". Are we talking about multi-strand thread (traditional) or thin Monofilament thread :?: :?:

[Lee Haskin]

Hey Darian,

There is a limitation to the size mono you can use with a "jig type" furled leader system. I think 6 lb. may be the largest....so there are several strands, rather than one with a handmade leader, to get the strength.

I will drop John Quigley a note and see if he might jump into this discussion. He makes furled leaders, commercially, with a jig.

Cheers,
Lee

[sculpin]

Leo check your mrssage box. I hope I did it right this time.

Mark

[fishjump]

First off - a big thank you to Leo. Without even knowing me, Leo very quickly responded on my taking him up on his offer, and sent me instructions and samples of his furling system. I hope I can return your kind gesture in the future.

I have studied the instructions and managed to make my own leaders using just surplus leader meterial lying around. However, I am now ready to start making leaders ready for my upcoming trip to Campeche! What leader material are people using? Maxima?

Thanks in advance.

Paul.

[Darian]

Paul,.... I'm using Maxima, Green in building my twisted leader butt sections. The tippet is Flourocarbon. If a large bite tippet is required, I switch to either Mason Hard or Amnesia (clear). 8) 8) I believe in the principle of KISS. So, I try not to use much of anything exotic. :) :)

Good luck on your trip. :D :D

[sculpin]

I have to give Leo a big thank you also. When I made my head scratching post he contacted me and then sent me a sample and instructions. I haven't tied one myself yet but I will soon. Thanks again Leo

Mark

[Leo]

Hey Guys
You are more than welcome and I wish you as much luck that I've had with these leaders. I've had good results with sailfish, tuna and skippies. I'm using 20lb Berkeley Trilene because its available almost everywhere and I've never had a failure. For the bite I'm using 40 or 50lb Stren for the baby tarpon because thats what I happen to have on hand and for the big guys I'm using 80lb Berkeley Big Game. If there is anything else that you need feel free to email me and I will try to help you.
Leo