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Chris V
06-09-2006, 08:28 AM
I've never tied up big top-water bass bugs, but according to several members of the board I'm going to need some divers for the July trip to the delta :D

Here's my first attempt. Let me know what you think... :?:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i263/cvan456/DSCN2373_Reduced.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i263/cvan456/DSCN2372_Reduced.jpg

I cut the bottom of the fly's very flat (you can't tell from this angle) and left the back part of the deer hair-head long. I've tried putting several different materials into the tail- including rabbit strips, antron, marabou, bucktail, and a few different colors of flash material.

I read a couple of different sites that suggested gluing the head/ bottom of the fly- so far I've just cemented the thread head. Should I be doing this :?: Will gluing over the deer hair sink the fly :?:

Any suggestions- Colors, materials, shape, etc... :?:

mikenewman
06-09-2006, 12:42 PM
Hi Chris
Those look great and I hesitate to offer advice 'cos I'm no expert but here are a few comments that you might find useful:
Always use a packing tool to get the hair on as tight as you can.
Make sure the full gape is available for better hook sets.
Old fashioned double edge razor blades are great for final shaping.
Experiment as much as you like with tail materials but always be aware of proportion. The main attraction of the fly comes from its action and it needs to sit down and back in the water so that when you strip you create a pronounced "dip and bloop" in the water. I've tied some very pretty looking flies at the bench that swam like one legged dead ducks! So be prepared for plenty of field (lake) testing.
Dave Whitlock recommends soaking the fly with watered down flexament for added longevity. He also ties parallel lengths of mono along the hook shank to give a broader base that prevents the hair body twisting on the finished fly. Personally I follow KD's advice and put a cemented half hitch or two after each spin/stack.
Finally, I'm now finding that I can buy better quality hair that is natural as opposed to dyed. (Not so brittle) So I tye plain bodies and I add colour via tail/flash materials.
Like I said, your bugs look great to me and I'm sure they'll pull plenty of action on the 22nd.
Cheers
Mike

Adam Grace
06-09-2006, 01:26 PM
Chris you should try a double weed guard like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/flyguyag/Chico/IMGP0206.jpg

The double works much better for me. I've tied alot of bass flies and this style of weed guard has always worked great. It is also easier to tie.

Double over a 25lb peice of mono, figure out how long the loop needs to be to bend lower than the point of the hook, then simply zap-agap the doubled-over point to the top of the hook (just behind the eye). The zap-a-gap hold the mono just fine. No need for messy tying off the thick 25lb mono.

I also agree with Mike, you might want to use a packing tool to get a little more dense body of hair. The use of cement after each spin of hair is a great way to make the fly last longer.

Also try cutting/molding the hair with doublesided razor blades, they bend to easily cut curves and they are great when cutting the flat bottom. Give them a try. If I can remember correctly you can find these old style razor blades at Longs or Rite Aid. They work well.

Chris your flies look nice, I bet they'll catch bass. I just wanted to share some tips that I have found to be very useful.

Have fun tying.

Charlie Gonzales
06-09-2006, 05:00 PM
Adam
that style of guards is great for gurglers and foam bodies but wouldnt they get in the way of your hair packer if you glue them in on the initial step(before you start spinning).dont get me wrong, i like double guards and i dont think it keeps from pierceing some lips.

Charlie Gonzales
06-09-2006, 05:08 PM
I must think outside the box. the folded section doesnt need to be glued in til your done spinning and tied off. my bad.

David Lee
06-09-2006, 07:33 PM
Hey Chris -

I think they look GREAT !!

Beware of weedguards - sometimes ... they can be 'fishguards' . Better to lose the odd bug , rather than the 12 lber. that takes the bug :idea:

BTW - the looser the pack , the lower the bug sits in the film - the lower in the film , the more shock waves they put out .

David :D

Bill Kiene semi-retired
06-09-2006, 09:21 PM
When Andy and I fished with Captain Kevin Doran in the Delta a few weeks ago we fished his swimming hair bugs like these Chris V tied.

I have to confess before that day I never used weed guards so I always cast very close to structure, but never on it or in it.

With Kevin we cast right into the vegetation where the bass were hiding.

For commercially tied patterns Kevin like the Umpqua 'Swimming Frogs' and 'Swimming Baitfish' in size #2 which is the largest they make. He likes even bigger hooks at times and likes 30# Mason for his single weed guards.

He says to really pack your deer hair tight so your hair bugs will float longer.

Adam,
Those double weed guard look pretty cool to me.

I think we are using the pointed front swimming hair bugs because we are swimming these things and not 'popping and stopping'. Kevin likes to swim them along with a continual twitch.

Hairstacker
06-09-2006, 10:46 PM
Chris, I think your flies look GREAT too. I know folks have different preferences on how tightly they like the heads packed. A lot of folks like them packed really tightly because, as Bill noted, they do float longer. They also sit higher, and I believe they sell much better commercially when they're packed REALLY tightly, as many folks equate "really tightly packed" with quality.

That said, I agree with David's comment that less tightly packed ones will sit lower in the surface and will push much more water when retrieved rather than skipping across it like a skipped stone. For this reason, I prefer my Tap's Bug's (and particularly the heads) are only packed so so. That way, when I give them good hard strips, they are just as likely to push water or dive slightly, as they are to skip across the surface like a skipped stone. If I notice a newly tied-on bug skipping across the surface exclusively, then I actually look forward to it taking on a bit of water so it will quit doing this as much.

mikenewman
06-10-2006, 06:55 AM
Mike
You catch far too many bass with your bugs for me to say you are wrong but here's why I think you are not right :lol:
A tightly packed head will push more water than a loose one - cork will push more than sponge.
The bug needs to sit down and back in the water and I believe this should be achieved via the proportions of the head to the hook ie the weight of the rear of the hook should act as a keel so that that the face of the back is pointing slightly upwards when at rest.
In my experience commercially tyed bugs are actually far too loosely packed 'cos tight packing is more costly in terms of time and materials.
I pack as tight as I can because I believe a loosely packed bug will quickly become too waterlogged for the action I'm seeking and yes tight = longer lasting.(and I've never had a problem with a skipping bug after the first cast)
David, as far as weedguards are concerned the purpose isn't to safeguard the the bug from loss but to allow me to cast it into and beyond snags and then work it through - isn't that where the 12lber is more likely to be hiding?
Chris, at the end of the day everybody catches more if they fish the fly they have most confidence in - experiment and make up ypur own mind :)
I can see the 22nd will now have 2 lunchtime seminars and a bug shootout :lol:

Mike

David Lee
06-10-2006, 07:34 AM
Chris, at the end of the day everybody catches more if they fish the fly they have most confidence in - experiment and make up your own mind :)
Mike

I'll agree with that part 100% :)

BTW , I think the difference of opinions regarding Bug design , in the end , will lead to building a better mousetrap (Bass Bug) .

David :nod:

Bill Kiene semi-retired
06-10-2006, 08:12 AM
I am excited to see the enthusiasm for warm water fly fishing.

I actually started fly fishing for small bass and panfish before any other species.

I think with the local surf fly fishing, carp hunting and local Stripers chasing that warm water fly fishing is finally getting it's fair share of popularity now.

We have to have the "battle of the hard body poppers and the hair bugs" now........yahooo.

This is exciting.

Darian
06-10-2006, 08:15 AM
Good discussion guys.... Let's see some more. :D :D :D :D

Adam Grace
06-10-2006, 08:18 AM
Great conversation!

I used to spin and clip dear hair for a long time, my flies are what got my foot in the door at Kiene's Fly Shop, Bill liked my spun bass bugs and I got a part time job. I used to love spinning hair. I grew out of that phase because my flies became to time consuming.

The water logging of a fly can sometimes work to your advantage as far as looking more natural (sitting in the water deeper). Unfortunately all deer hair bugs soak up water, the tightness of the packing can siimply slow down the time it takes ( unless you continually dress your bug in floatant). Also the casting of a waterlogged deer bug is a pain in the butt. Deer hair bugs are great but I leave the tying of those up to Umqua and other commercial fly tyers. I only tie with foam anymore, less time consuming and they float and last longer.

Bye the way....... Good thinking outside the box Charlie! :lol:

I should have mentioned that you should zap-a-gap the double-weed guard after tying and clipping the fly.

The double weed guard helps me fish deep into cover as well as....and I hate to admit this....protect me from bad casts. I almost never hang up in snags and weed mats with a double weed guard.

Like David and Mike said, you catch more fish if you have confidence in your fly, I totally agree.

I'm enjoying this topic guys, very fun.

jbird
06-10-2006, 08:21 AM
In the tens of thousands of flies I've tied over the last 20 years, I have always avoided tying a spun deer hair fly. They have just never fit my catagory of fishing well and they seemed like too much work. Now that I am enjoying the persuit of bass and panfish a little more, my interest is piqued. This thread discussionis very interesting and helpful. Think I'll have to give it a try. There was a great article in flyfishing saltwaters magazine recently on the subject. I'll have to dig that out.

Great looking flies you tied there tho! If they dont float high enough with the loose packing, could you spray them with some scotchguard of fly floatant the night before?

J

Darian
06-10-2006, 08:26 AM
Hey guys,.... What hooks (type, model, brand, etc.) are best for use on your divers :?: I've just started using Gammies, B10S. 8) 8)

mikenewman
06-10-2006, 08:41 AM
Darian
I had settled on tiemco 8089's but I've also just discovered the Gamakakatsu B10S and think they are excellent for big divers.

Jbird: I tried Scotchguard but found it made my bugs stink for days. Then I tried double applications of Gink but my bugs gave off such an oil slick Greenpeace tried to ram my boat! Now I when I no longer like the way the bug is swimming I change it for a fresh one and let it dry out.

Chris V
06-10-2006, 09:43 AM
Thanks for all the advice guys, I really appreciate it.

Adam- I'm assuming with your double weed guard, you still tie on the mono to the back of the hook as your first step- correct :?:

I did go by the shop and got myself a hair packer- I tied these by just forcing the hari back with my fingers- sounds like I need to do some expiramenting on the water to find out what works for me.

Jbird- I'm with you...I haven't tied quite as many flies as you have, but up 'till now I haven't tied any top water bass bugs at all. It is pretty fun to get into a new thing :D

Darian- the hooks these bugs were tied on are TMC 8089 size 2.

Richard
06-10-2006, 01:54 PM
I also tie my divers on a Tiempco 8089 - size 2. I find that anything smaller tends to get swallowed and endangers the fish. In addition it seems to avoid hooking the smaller fish, at least a little.

I tie using a lot of different kind of hair, deer belly, deer body, elk and antelope. My primary concern is the length of the hair. Short hair is just a pain! :x I also use a lot of contrast in the hair rings. White and black for example. For the collar on I use light colors, white, bright green, chartreuse, yellow. This is for MY visibility. I don't think it matters much to the fish at all!! :) I suspect, but I can't prove that contrast matters, but not color. I think that the noise and movement is more critical than color. As a side note I tie the fly on coming from the bottom of the eye so that when I strip in line it pulls the fly down. I do think this makes at least a little difference.

I much prefer a very tight fly. You can fish it a lot longer and through several fish. In my experience loosely tied flies sometimes don't last through the second or third fish. But others may have had a different experience. On this note I have tried al kinds of ways to pack the fly. Mostly I have gone back to using my fingers. But I just started a new procedure and it seems to work. I am using a crimper that I bought at a saltwater tackle store for $3. WOW!! Does it ever pack them tight. :D :D If you can pick up a cheap crimper try it and see if your experience matches mine.

I prefer hackle tails over other types and I use a single loop weed guard. I also like to use a fair (a lot? :? ) of flash. On the other hand I have had good luck with other "formulations" so experimentation is the word of the day. No two of my bugs look the same. I usually only need one or two a day when fishing so I can tie a lot more than I use, so I tend to play around and experiment as I don't need a lot of a single type. Although they are almost all variations on the Dahlberg Diver.

I'll put on an example a little later for those of you who want a really good laugh. :D :D

Adam Grace
06-10-2006, 02:20 PM
The Tiemco 8089 hook is also my choice for a bass bug hook, it's always done the job for me, no need for me to look for another hook.

Hairstacker
06-10-2006, 05:12 PM
I also use the size 2 Tiemco 8089, ha.

Although this is a thread specifically addressing Dahlberg Divers, my comments regarding my preference of a so-so packed head relate to my preference for tying and fishing the Tap's Bug, a deerhair popper:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Sachlil/TapsBug2.jpg

As you can see, this fly has a rather sparse tail compared to a Diver, which enables me to cast it with a 5 wt. rod. The tai is also light from the standpoint of acting like a keel, so it will skip across the surface a lot if tied very tightly.

Since the Diver has a fairly heavy keel with all those feathers and, in some cases marabou or a rabbit strip, as well as a ragged collar which may absorb water, perhaps a tighter head serves to balance this keel better. So perhaps, it all also depends on the type of fly involved.

Richard
06-10-2006, 06:46 PM
Here's a diver that I'm in the final stages of finishing (just a few razor cuts to make it even and I'm done). It's a closeup of the body, you can just see the hackle, which (although you can't see it) in this one is pretty long. It's a combination of deer hair and elk hair.

http://www.usfca.edu/fac-staff/davisr/Diver1-web.jpg

mikenewman
06-10-2006, 07:35 PM
Mike
I'm not really a Taps man but here's a Tap's style popper I tyed last year. Believe me, it's packed tighter than Pamela Anderson's bra -

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Mikenewman_/poppers011.jpg

Now here's the same bug dropped into a glass that normally holds an amber coloured liquid -

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Mikenewman_/poppers016.jpg

My point is that you can see a substantial proportion of the bug is submerged and indeed it doesn't tend to skip when stripped. Also, David says he's bringing Leo G poppers on the 22nd. Aren't they solid balsa jobs? Surely no amount of tightly packed deer hair could be as dense as that?
Anyway, can't wait to pursue this face to face :)

Richard: Nice Diver (And very tight :lol: )

Mike

Hairstacker
06-10-2006, 08:11 PM
Mike, tie that same fly with a much broader face and triangular shape, rather than a thin, long rectangular shape, and I bet you find it skips all over the place. :) Also, I bet if I trimmed my Tap's Bug down as far as your bug, it's probably tied just as tightly. When I refer to "very tightly packed," I'm speaking of a deerhair fly surface that almost looks solid even when the hairs are left as long as they are on my Tap's Bug.

You have a point about the balsa wood poppers. On the other hand, they are a different material entirely, so maybe they have other attributes that balance out the solid design.

No less an authority than Charles F. Waterman also prefers a less dense, more raggedly trimmed Tap's Bug.

Touche. :lol: :lol: :lol:

bolden
06-10-2006, 08:30 PM
Those flies look awesome, and i am sure they will work great. If you want some cool tricks to tying diver's, here is a
great site that shows step by step. You can also check out the other tutorials of many different flies.

http://www.charliesflyboxinc.com/flybox/details.cfm?parentID=38

David Lee
06-10-2006, 08:58 PM
Let's all play nice now ...... :evil:

For the record - I am bringing (and fishing ...) Balsa , Cork , soft foam , hard foam , Deerhair , and silicone-coated wool (yeah .... that kind of 'floats') . There really is NO right or wrong way to tye .... I simply stated how I like my bugs .

Leo G.s poppers are the last examples of a truely American craft - will they out-fish everything out there ?? Likely , NO ..... but I still look upon them with awe because I know what went into them and I have a MASSIVE amount of respect for that sort of craftsmanship .

Also , I'll bring the Bushmills .... so we can sort-out that cup problem of yours , Mr. Newman :shock: :P :lol:

I can't think of a BETTER GROUP of guys to .... uh , DEBATE .... these important issues with ....... :D

David(loose-packin' SAVAGE)Lee :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Chris V
06-10-2006, 09:11 PM
Hey Richard,

Nice looking diver.

It looks like you also used deer or elk hair (green in your photo) to make up part of the tail along with the hackle- correct :?:

Bolden- thanks for the link- that's a great trick with the plastic bag :!:

Hairstacker
06-10-2006, 09:49 PM
David, yep, I agree, it all comes down to personal preferences in how you like the bug to look and behave. Also, confidence in the fly is critically important, as several fellas suggested.

For me, this has been a very interesting discussion/debate. :nod: Never intended to imply a serious tone and thus, if I came across that way, sorry(!) and hope I haven't rubbed anyone the wrong way. :oops: Actually, I would love to hear more opinions on the subject, even if they ALL say I'm all wet, ha. Maybe I am. :lol:

As far as the Leo G.'s balsa bugs that I own (David Lee gave 'em to me! :cool: ), well, I'm hoarding those as works of art for display and imitation ONLY. I don't care if bass knock on the front door for 'em, they're not gettin' 'em!

Adam Grace
06-10-2006, 10:43 PM
That plastic bag trick is nice, I used to use paper to do the same thing, but I like the use of plastic more. Thanks for the tip.

jbird
06-11-2006, 08:44 AM
Guys! after viewing Boldens link, I dont know if I have the kind of patience to tie a fly that requires 40-something steps. Whew!!

Jay

mikenewman
06-11-2006, 08:44 AM
OK you slackers I'm nearly done. Actually Mike, I suspect you are right and that we are indeed probably barking up the same tree. However, since you brought in your pal Mr Waterman to deal me a killer blow, I have no alternative but to counter with William G Tapply: noted author of "Bass Bug Fishing" and son of H G "Tap' Tapply:
"The secret...is to pack each bunch of deer hair tightly back against the previous one. Pinch and twist it back against the base made by your left thumb and finger. Don't be gentle with it. The purpose is to pack it as tightly as you can"
So touch you too :lol:
Now I'm going to get out of your (miserably loose) hair as I'm returning to the UK for 3 weeks tomorrow. There I can virtually guarantee that my views on fishing for Delta Largemouth will go unchallenged :D
All the best
Mike

Darian
06-11-2006, 09:09 AM
Jay,.... My first reaction is to agree about that many steps... I tend to tie bugs that're shaggier than that pictured. 8) So, for me there are too many steps involved in that bug's creation. The tier obviously feels a need for perfection. I'm not that picky for my own bugs.

The plastic sheet steps, while interesting, seem a bit excessive to me. :?

When I thought over the number of steps I use to tie my own bugs, tho, it really isn't very different than the number shown on that link. :oops: I try not to tie too many deear hair bass bugs. :lol: :lol:

jbird
06-11-2006, 10:55 AM
Thats a good point Darian. I was teaching a friend to tie a sea habit and it was exhausting. When I tie them alone, they flow together pretty quick. It feels like theres maybe 10-12 steps. When I am explaining the process however, it seems like 30 :lol:

Jay

Richard
06-11-2006, 02:22 PM
Chris V.,

Yep, that's deer hair dyed green. It's the only case where I don't clip the tips. It's only one bunch and I don't flare it. I tie it in close to the butts. It seems to make a nice back to the fly AND it hides a multitude of sloppy work! :D

Hairstacker
06-11-2006, 07:16 PM
Mike, you got me there! #-o And I own Bill Tapply's book as well. :lol: Ah well, to each his own. :D

Jgoding
06-14-2006, 08:33 AM
Man, I can't believe I missed this thread for so long. I don't tie with deer hair that often but I would go for a tight pack (sorry David), but for me it would be because it will shape easier and look nicer. But not being a great tyer I will say this.....one word for top water..... two syllables.....my go to topwater producer...... BuzzBait!! LOL

Seriously though, David ties some mean flies and last year he was plopping a sili-clone around and it had some nice movement as it was pulled under and stripped around and I was quite impressed... I will say this, I think less dense flies would fish better though, especially if it's a balance issue. They will equilibrate faster and be less likely off balanced in my opinion than a tightly packed fly. But it also depends on the shape of the fly and how you're fishing it as well. I think flies that are clipped way down should be tightly packed, but flies with larger heads and collars should be more loosely packed. Most advice though is to pack the hair as tight as you can though....

Sturmer White
06-14-2006, 07:22 PM
Hey Darian
The best hook in my opinion is the 8089. Size 2 for the Delta and size 6 for most pond fishing.
Hey Bill
You forgot one hot fly in your post.
Hair,hard body and GURGLERS. Yippie!

Darian
06-14-2006, 10:30 PM
Hi Sturmer,.... The 8089 i certainly a goo choice in hooks. I started tying on B10S a couple of years ago and found that I like it better. I like the black finish and large gap between point and shank. Allows for attaching a small amount of materials below the hook shank without interfering with the gap. 8) 8) 8) The size of the gap almost dictates using a snag guard.

Like the 8089, the B10S is forged and quite strong but, I believe, is not quite as heavy. 8) 8) :D

Hairstacker
06-15-2006, 12:13 AM
Perhaps I should make a distinction when I refer to preferring so-so packed heads on my Tap's Bugs. I pack the hell out of each hair stack as they're added -- in fact, as tightly as I can possibly make them. But what I don't do is stack a bunch of additional hair on top of the spun hair at the head to give the final clipped fly an almost solid appearance. Does that make sense? If by "tightly packed," everyone is referring to pushing back the spun hair stacks against one another, then I am in full agreement that the fly should be "packed" as tightly as possible. BUT, I want the tips of the hair at the head to only end up being so-so packed as a result of leaving them fairly long without additional hair stacking. Hope that makes sense. Probably should have said this in the first place, ha.

Bill Kiene semi-retired
06-15-2006, 09:00 AM
I think this is the decade that black bass fly fishing will really get recognized.

It is accessible and close to home.

Darian
06-15-2006, 11:13 AM
After reading Jeff's post, I reclled that propeller type spinner blades were used on antique Bass flys. Dan Blanton uses an Indiana type spinner blade on his saltwater fly, "Spinster". 8) 8)

Anybody ever use a spinner blade of any type on their Bass flies :?: :?: Like, maybe at the rear of a frog pattern :?: :?: :?:

Adam Grace
06-15-2006, 03:32 PM
I've thought about putting a spinner on a popper but haven't done it yet.

Jgoding
06-15-2006, 03:37 PM
Hey guys, I was just "funning" about the buzzbait... well not really, I do throw those small buzzbaits with some plastic added exclusively for topwater bass fishing (white only!!) but I would never put a spinner or any other hardware on a fly.... just throw a buzzbait if you're going to do that... its a lot more efficient.

Jeff

Darian
06-15-2006, 06:09 PM
Hmmmm,.... Is a bead hardware :?: :?: How about rattles :?: :?:

Jgoding
06-17-2006, 08:55 AM
Hi Darian,

I knew I should've put in my post, "beads excluded". I thought about it but was too darn lazy to type it. Rattles are pushing it though but I don't really care what you put on your flies. To me, you just don't need to add that stuff to your flies... they make spinners already, and if you want to use one, then get the spin-gear out and use one.. it's much easier than casting and retreiving that stuff with spin gear so why waste ur time flogging it around on a fly rod???

Jeff

Darian
06-17-2006, 12:50 PM
Hey Jeff,.... Good points all.... Just curious if anyone uses blades on their flies or has experimented with 'em. A lot of antique fly tiers incorporated blades in their patterns with some exotic materials (feathers/furs). 8) 8) 8)