Roe as Bait....????

[Darian]

I'm curious about how use of Roe for taking of Salmon/Steelhead is viewed by BB members. :? :? :?

Before making any statements one way or the other, I have to admit that at some point in my fishing life, I've used fresh/cured Roe for bait. Having said that, I'm no longer in favor of allowing it's use.

First it's too effective in catching Salmon/Steelhead. Second, obtaining Roe, unless you have your own personal hatchery, requires killing the fish.

Over a period of time, I've seen fisherman slaughter Salmon in almost every river I've ever fished for the Roe; with no intent of using the carcass for food. :( :( :( Indeed, there is an active (legal) commercial trade for Salmon/Steelhead Roe (possibly farmed...). I guess my point is that we kill fish to obtain Roe to kill fish for food. The obvious pressure on fish stocks in any given river is magnified by this activity. :( :(

I should clarify that I'm not condemning fishing with bait, in general, nor am I condemning anyones method of using said bait/lure. Merely asking if anyone thinks it might be time to re-think the use of Roe for bait for the fisheries sake. :?: :?: 8) 8)

[Covelo]

I chime in here from time to time, but am by no means an avid fly fisherman like most of you, since I fish using many methods. I don't know how much you care about my opinion but here is what I think.

I don't think it serves any purpose to single out any particular group or fishing method or even have a strong bias against killing fish. Just because a particular method is more successful does not mean it is detrimental to the fishery. In the end, the question is whether or not a fishery is sustainable, not how many fish are being taken or how. If a fishery can withstand a specific level of take without a negative impact then why does it matter how the fish are being taken as long as the fishermen are following the regulations and there is no impact? Many of our local rivers are extremely altered and likely could not support larger runs even if all the fish were allowed to spawn. The carrying capacity of these streams is likely determined by water temperature, surface area, and how many smolts the hatcheries are pumping into the system which, of course, likely has a negative impact on wild stocks. Ocean conditions more than anything probably dictate how many adults will return. Therefore when you target a group of fishermen you are likely just diverting attention away from the real problems impacting the health of these fisheries. Look at how the water releases have negatively impacted the Klamath River. Certainly wasn’t the take by fishermen that caused that problem. It is interesting that this issue may provide some data as to what impacts the ocean commercial fishermen have since their season will be largely reduced this year. Now if a run or fishery is imperiled then more regulation is obviously required and examining the method of take may be necessary. This is the way the DFG does it already. Look at the number of streams where you have to use artificial lures or flies.

From my previous posts you may have noticed that I am strongly against non-native species. I have never understood how proponents of catch and release fisheries extend this to non-native species like striped bass and brown trout even though these species have negative impacts on the native runs of salmon and steelhead.

[Darian]

Covelo,.... Your .02 is as good as anybody's on this board. Good to hear from you. 8) 8)

I hope I didn't confuse anyone with the question which has nothing to do with condemning a group of fisherman or a fishing methodology (e.g. drifting, plunking, trolling, etc.). Only the question of using roe for bait.

I do see that the sustainability of a species in any watershed is a key element in the discusion. 8) 8) From my limited perspective, the practice of killing a fish to obtain roe (if it means wasting the carcass) does contribute to a reduction in fish populations regardless of how small.

The effectiveness of roe as bait is undeniable. However, the indirect effect of obtaining it (....at least in this area) is the waste of an unknown number of dark Salmon carcasses when they're discarded.... :( :(

As many of you have, I was raised in a family of outdoorsman who stressed that I/we should not kill something if we're unable to use all of it. 8) Thus, this situation appears to present a dilema for those of us faced with that choice. My personal choice is that don't kill a fish for the roe. I made this choice (during the early 70's) after many years using roe for bait myself. I haven't used roe since that point in time. 8) 8)

Again, Covelo, I hope I didn't offend you.... It's a rhetorical question. 8) 8)

[Covelo]

Certainly no offense was taken. I also drew from other posts/posters or at least my perception. I actually meant to include a part about the taking of roe but forgot.

I think the worse case I have heard about (unverified also) was someone at night dragging a net through the Eel River at the mouth of the Van Duezen River for salmon, cutting them open for the roe and leaving the carcasses on the bank. This was many years ago. Just last year there was a guy posting on another forum who was proud of the big dark salmon he was taking from the Nimbus Basin just for the roe. I do not know how common this extreme case is, but certainly bait fishermen will keep female salmon for the roe when the fish is a little darker than they usually prefer. I would hope that they would at least smoke up these fish and eat them. I thought there was a regulation against taking a fish just for the roe and leaving the carcass, but I may be mistaken. In the end though, I think you have to realize that this is an emotional response. The impact to the run is the central question and is the same whether the fish is eaten or buried as fertilizer. It doesn't bother me as much when it occurs on rivers like the American and Feather where salmon stocks are healthy and predominantly hatchery fish. If it isn't already illegal, I would support regulations that make the taking of salmon solely for bait illegal simply because it is a waste. If the fishery is healthy though, I don't see how you can make an arguement that the runs are being impacted. As long as there are sufficient spawners to saturate the system (hatcheries included), then the impact is negligable no matter how difficult it is to stomach this behavior.

[Darian]

Hmmmm,.... It's hard to argue against your case. Especially, since I've already said, in other posts, that I thought snagging above the Hazel Ave Brdge on the American should be legalized as those fish were going to be wasted anyway.... The point was that Warden hours could be used more effectively elsewhere (like on the Eel River). I guess we're all faced with personal choices in this area and that should be enough.

I completely agree that this is an emotional issue even when trying to examine it dispassionately. 8) 8)

[Dustin Revel]

after reading those posts I could make an arguement either way. To me taking a salmon for its roe is like killing a bear for its gall bladder. It just seems wrong, But i think there are many other factors that more adversely affect the salmon runs. For example commercial fishing. when salmon are in the ocean (correct me if I'm wrong) It cannot be said what stream they will end up in. the salmon caught by the commercial fishermen could be on their way to a stream that only has a run of twenty- thirty salmon annually. this would definately affect the stream more then taking a few salmon for roe from another stream that has a healthy run of salmon.

I have a question for Covelo. Do you think removing non native species such as striped bass, and brown trout would be good or bad for the ecosystem? Keep in mind the methods used to do so. Now I have another question. Are sea run brown trout native to the America's?

Dusty

[Covelo]

As far as I know, all brown trout are native to Europe. As far as the other exotic species being detrimental, I don't know how they cannot be. If they do not directly eat salmonids (and stripers do) then they are competing for food sources. As for eradicating them, I don't think it is possible nor should it be attempted. Still I do not understand why there is a limit for these species. They should be an all you can take. Kill as many as you can.

The gentleman that taught my father how to fish for steelhead used to target stripers off Benicia. He used to go down there on the days the DFG truck was releasing smolts because all the big stripers would move in close and gorge.

I remember when they announced the winter run salmon as federally endangered. It was ironic that within a couple weeks there was another article about how the DFG was releasing one million stripe bass fry to bolster the population. Talk about messed up thinking.

[Dustin Revel]

the last bit is a little flawed. it seems that there is almost to much focus on sport rather than what is right for the envi.
Dusty

[alaskanfish]

Hey all,

Been a while since I've posted... too busy fishing I guess.

My opinion on this issue is: depends. As a salmon guide, I use roe frequently, and you are absolutely correct... it is very effective. However I really cannot explain why? Salmon do not eat when in fresh water (pacific salmon that is), and they never see roe in nature, so why do they bite??? I digress.

I believe that Covelo is right on regarding the sustainable yield. Over escapement is very detremental to the fishery! When the eggs hatch, the alevin/fry remain in the fresh water for a time, eating bugs and zooplankton... an large population of small guys will eat up the available food sources so that all of them suffer to some extent. So, find the escapement range, and manage the fishery to fall into that range... harvesting the surplus. This will result in a larger and more healthy run when they return.

On the other hand, I disagree with the use of bait for resident fish; i.e. trout, char, etc. Again, it is way too effective. How many times does a mature trout find itself on the end of a line? I am a strong advocate of fly fishing (and C&R at that; of course I am spoiled eating salmon) for the residents.