Guide Insurance

[Tony Buzolich]

For you guys out there that use your boat to take people out (drift or inland only) on guided fishing trips, what kind of insurance do you carry to protect your client and yourself in case of an accident?

Dept. of Fish & Game requires a Surity Bond for your licence but I've never seen anything else.

How do you protect yourself in the event of an accident where your client gets a hook in his eye or falls overboard and drowns :( ?

I'm thinking some of these guides are on the water a lot more than I am and I'm just wondering what everyone else uses.
TONY

[Frank Alessio]

Tony..... There are a couple of things you can do... You can put a Million Dollar umbrella policy on your Homeowners policy for a few dollars a month... You can also Homstead your Home to make sure it is safe ...

Frank

[fineandfar]

I'm not currently a guide, but i've been thinking about this. Can't you have your guests sign a waiver/release form?

[Darian]

Altho I can't think of any names, right now, I'm sure there're some good surety companies out there that specialize in insuring guides. 8)

In taking the other steps mentioned, you should be aware that waivers signed by clients aren't iron clad and declaring/recording a homestead on your home can have some unintended consequences. :? :?

A homestead creates a lien for a specified amount of your equity against your home. A recorded homestead can interfere with your ability to refinance. For example. Should you need to borrow against the equity in your home after recording the homestead, your intended lender will undoubtedly make you release your homestead interest in order to gain a priority position among existing lienholders in case repayment must come from that home. All of that stuff costs money, as well. Not saying you shouldn't consider it but just make sure you think it over well before recording.... 8) 8)

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I think if a guide has any equity in a home that they probably have insurance.

[marteen]

Tony:

My homeowners policy (and I believe most) does not cover bodily or property damages which arises from or during the course of business pursuits of an insured.

You might want to read your policy carefully, and consult with insurers that cover yachts, watercraft, etc. to determine what type of commercial policy (and liability coverage) you need.

[bubzilla]

When I read this thread I couldn't believe that California, the most litigious state in the Union, doesn't require guides to carry liability insurance. I had to go check for myself. Sure enough. I'm in shock.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/pdffiles/fg1584.pdf

Oregon requires, as a condition of being licensed, that a prospective guide obtain a liability policy with at least $300,000 combined single limit per occurrence general liability coverage. The Oregon Marine Board even supplies a list of companies that underwrite those sorts of policies. The last time I checked, a standard guide's policy, that would enable the insured to guide from a non-motorized boat on waters rated up to Class II and that met the minimum coverage required by the state, ran about $700 a year. In Oregon, you will have this minimum liability insurance or you won't have a license. Really, that's the way it should be.

http://www.boatoregon.com/Guides/

None of this is legal advice, so please don't take it as such, but with regard to waivers I'd like to make a couple points. Releases, waivers of liability, assumption of risk agreements, and prospective exculpatory covenants are all words to describe the singular concept that an injured party cannot recover because he or she signed a piece of paper in advance of the injury. These things are pretty prevalent these days; although, it's a major mistake to assume they're bulletproof or even really, in many cases, worth the time it takes to execute them.

Courts tend to look at them with a skeptical eye given the fact that the defendent in the case is attempting to avoid responsibility for his or her actions. Despite freedom of contract arguments, public policy considerations for preserving an obligation of care are frequently used by the courts to justify finding these waivers invalid as a matter of law. Further, unless there's evidence the defendant meaningfully educated participants in the activity as to both the release and the risks involved in the activity, the trend there is for releases to be meaningless as well. Even if affective, their scope is generally limited to risks specifically contemplated in the release. And, plaintiff's attorneys challenge the validity of these things very aggressively. All things considered, best to still have good insurance.

P.S. good points about lien priority, Darian. There are loan products and lenders that will take a second, third, or even worse position assuming there is sufficient value in the collateral or more importanly you have a good enough credit rating, but the standard mortgage will have to be, as you point out, in first position. Some lenders are even a little touchy about what goes behind them.

[Tony Buzolich]

How can a guy with a moniker like "Bubzilla" come up with words I'd expect out of the mouth of F.Lee Bailey or Melvin Belli?

Geez, this is good stuff.

I just want to be better prepared when striper season opens up and things really get going.
TONY

[rhelliott]

Tony
check the FFF they have a section on their web site devoted to guideing that offers insurance to the menbership.

[alaskanfish]

Insurance, IMHO, is highway robbery... just who owns the biggest buildings? Nevertheless, insurance will go to great lengths in the unfortunate event of a client injury/death. There are only 3 companies that write commercial guide insurance, but an abundance of brokers who have access to these. My broker presently is Leonard Stone from Coastal Plains Outdoors, a Farmers Insurance Agent from California. (800-361-1291; tell him Ed from Alaskan Fish Guides sent you).

I am insured by Arch Insurance company who absolutely requires a liability waiver. Though likely won't endure a challenge in court, they do a great job of helping the client to make an informed decision and makes them aware of the potential risks involved. The signed waiver in hand is way better in court than nothing at all to validate that you informed the client of the risk exposure.

Now back to the insurance. It is interesting that if you get commerical insurance on your boat, you can get a "shore excursion" addition for a nominal fee. But, you have to get to where you begin walking by boat. If you arrive by automobile, however, your boat insurance (thus guide insurance) won't cover. I have to carry double coverage because I also guide hike out trips!!! The State of Alaska, FDA (National Forests) and Department of Interior (Wildlife Refuges) all mandate the level of coverage in Alaska and insist on being "additional insured."

Insurance is a necessary evil. I cringe every year when I have to write that check, but knowing that I will be covered in the case of an incident is comforting.

By the way, your best insurance is prevention. Always insist on PFD's, stay on your toes, don't take unnecessary risks, be the leader that you should be, and be prepared for any unexpected situations with, of course the required USCG equipment, but also a first aid kit and training, communication equipment, a good and well prepared safety plan and a practical operating plan.

Good luck.

[k.hanley]

Say Hey Tony,
Insurance is indeed required in California. Anyone conducting any kind of “service business” must have liability coverage. When I started back in 1977 $350,000 was the minimum standard. Now in most cases $1 Million is what people carry (me included).

The surety bond is in addition to basic insurance coverage. The bond exists to protect the client’s investment (in case the guide doesn’t show up, or the guide’s business goes bust).

Liability waivers are another story all together. In California they don’t carry much water. We live in a State that protects individuals from signing your rights away. In other words, people can still sue if negligence can be proven. So why do we have waivers being used in California as a daily practice? It’s because your insurance carrier might have that as a requirement for obtaining (and holding) coverage. This is particularly true for out-of-state providers. In addition the waiver shows the courts that you took a responsible step to inform your client that there are potential hazards inherent in your field of activity (nature’s impact is a biggy).
Cheers, Ken

[smokeater]

I am not a giude, but for what it's worth from my own experience with guide services and from the fire service, Alaskanfish makes a great point. Prevention is the best insurance you can get. No offense but, I am often surprised at the complete lack of safety I see when guides take their clients out on the water. It was mentioned before and I will say it again, if I were ever hired as a guide and effectively made myself responsible for the safety of my clients I would require PFDs in addition to a safety talk on dry land. Most of the time you can float the American backwards with your eyes closed without any issues. This season on the American we have had incidents where we have seen drift boats lost along with all the "unused safety equipment" (that was probably lashed to the hull). I believe the coast guard requires a pfd for each passenger.......that does no good if they aren't used. Most people simply assume that they don't need a PFD because they know how to swim. I for one wouldn't consider taking them out if they didn't. What they fail to realize is the reality of what can actually go wrong, say you fall out of the boat and strike your head on a rock. What about the water temperature, how long will your strength last........will it be long enough to effect a self rescue, will it be long enough for the boat to effect a rescue.
It may sound sort of anal, but when I hire a guide service whether it be for fishing, white water rafting, etc...... I'm not really concerned about their insurance......I am making mental notes of how prepared they are for the safety talk, I am looking for the presence and condition of their safety equipment, and asking about an "Incident Action Plan" to see what sort of hazard analysis they have actually made for our trip and if they have incorporated safety into the plan. For instance, what is the game plan if we are halfway down the Middle Fork and someone is injured and needs medical attention beyond basic first aid. These things among others will determine whether or not I plan on hiring them again for the next trip, but more importantly these are the things that will ensure my safe return to dry land. The payout of an insurance policy would be of very little consequence to my wife if I weren't around anymore(atleast that's what she says). Someone mentioned whether or not a waiver of liability is ironclad. You can have all the signed waivers in the world, but if you had the opportunity to don PFDs and the "experienced professional guide" did not insist on it, that can be seen as negligent. Any attorney worth half his salt will see that, and in that case any insurance you have may refuse to cover you for that incident. I am not saying that every guide that puts a boat on water should slip a PFD on every client, but if it were me I would have to weigh the pros and cons and consider whether or not it would be unreasonable to due so. I remember an incident we had several years ago where a 9-10 year old girl was riding tailboard on a ski boat that was towing a jet ski, she either passed out from the exhaust fumes or fell off, was struck by the jet ski, knocked unconscious and drowned, we ended up recovering her body three days later. She had a PFD but was not wearing it. Whatever insurance is available get it and along with that take measures to ensure that you won't need it.

A little off topic, I'll step off the soap box now.

[alaskanfish]

Smokeeater... I'm right on that soap box with you... 26 years in the local FD made some sort of impression I guess...(retired as training division chief/paramedic).

[Hairstacker]

Hey Smokeater, I'm standing right there on the other side of that soap box with you. Stuff happens. . . .