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View Full Version : Interesting article in the latest Fish Sniffer magazine



Bill Kiene semi-retired
02-26-2006, 03:22 PM
http://www.fishsniffer.com/guest/060223stripers.html

It is about fishing artificial lures for Stripers and that would have a direct parallel to fly fishing for them.

http://www.fishsniffer.com/guest/images/060223stripers2.jpg

Katz
02-26-2006, 07:46 PM
Thanks for the link. I would really like to fish out of the same boat with someone using "conventional" tackle and see if fly fishing acutally works better. My gut is telling me that we would take them? :D

Katz

slimfishin's
02-27-2006, 07:06 PM
My gut feeling tells me that dudes throwing gear, that know what they are doing, will out-fish a fly guy 5 to 1.

Trust me.

SF

flygolf
02-27-2006, 10:06 PM
I think I would take that bet. 5 to 1 sure I'll put up $10 on that.

slimfishin's
02-27-2006, 10:32 PM
I have had the fortune to fish with some fellows that throw some serious gear for stripers. Some would even admit that they often risk divorce or unemployment as a result of their striped bass addiction. Let's assume that they are good fishermen. Of course, for the sake of this discussion, we will assume that I am a "good" fly fisherman .

On several occasions, I have been either fishing with them in their boat, or in a boat next to them. Not once have I been able to come close to putting up the same numbers. In fact, three days ago, I witnessed this yet again. Two fly fishermen were cruising around the same hole as two gear chuckers in another boat. The fellows throwing gear landed 5 to 8 fish (up to 15lbs) within a span of about an hour. The fly fishermen got zero, fishing the same water. Maybe there was a big difference in skills, but it looked like the fly guys were pretty good... judging from their sweet boat and excellent casting.

My impression is that gear lends itself to being more productive, more of the time, in a wider range of conditions. However, there are always exceptions. (Think back to Tony's post about the guy buying the beers and fishing at night....) Whether or not it is more fun to fish gear is really a matter of personal preference. I'd be curious to hear if anyone has had similar experiences?

SF

flygolf
02-27-2006, 11:34 PM
I think you bring up great points and probably would win the bet. I just like the challenge and the odds. The thing that I've notice most about striper fishing with the fly isn't so much the great casting that one exhibits but really the presentation that is involved once the fly is in the water. Not to toot my own horn because believe me I am not an expert!!!!! That being said, I have gone through holes that have been flogged by gear guys that didn't have any luck and been able to entice fish to strike.

There is no doubt that the gear guys have an advantage..more realistic actions and lures not to mention the live bait or scented variations (sardine wraps etc.) of swim baits. I just like the odds, like I said if $10 could get me $50, I'll take that bet.

One last footnote, if you want to take me up on it, do I get to ride in the boat? To me that would be well worth the $10 that I would probably lose.

Darian
02-27-2006, 11:57 PM
Hmmmm,..... I'm in agreement with Slim on this.... Not taking anything from expert fly fisherman but If all things are equal a knowledgeable bait fisherman can ply his/her trade over more days each year than a fly fisher of similar interest. 8) Nobody can argue that bait or lures are not more effective than flies for Stripers. That alone is going to equal more fish. 8) Sometimes fly gear will just not work in "off" conditions (ie. high winds, high turbidity, etc.). 8)

At any rate, in order to make this situation a valid test, it should be done under controls. The boats should be the same brand/model and equally equipped. The waters fished should be the same each day. 8)

One day, the gear guys fish thru first, the second day the fly guys fish first. This should continue over a defined period of time. Each fisherman should carry an objective judge/partner for keeping a log of the results. 8)

Having said all of that, I don't think it's worth all of the effort to do this anyway. Let's just go have some fun with all of our fishin' brethren.... :D :D

slimfishin's
02-28-2006, 09:18 AM
hmmm..... I like the experimental design part, which got me thinking. It would be interesting to see the creel sensus data for the Delta. The data to answer this question probably already exists! If DFG would furnish it, you could run some simple statistics to see if there is a difference in catch rates by method across all anglers surveyed. If you had enough anglers, it could provide whether flies or gear produce the most fish, on average, even taking into account the different numbers of people of each type (sample size issues). That way, you might include anglers of all skill levels as well.

On another interesting note, after talking with folks that have collected creel data in the Delta, it is indeed true that 10% of the fisherman catch 90% of the fish.... or something like that.

Well, I better go collect more data. This needs further study... :D

SF

Katz
02-28-2006, 09:45 AM
I have some friends that fish conventional tackle out of Dixon Landing and I will try to get a "back seat" on one of thier boats in the next month or so and let you know how the #'s turn out.

Katz

NCS
02-28-2006, 09:55 AM
Interesting topic! I fish with both gear and flies for stripers in the delta and bay (go ahead...call me Benedict Arnold :D ). When I take family members/guests it is much easier/fun for them to troll plugs. The rest of my trips, which is 75+ percet of the time, I throw flies. In the last year I noticed that catch rates per rod were definately higher with gear. I would guess they were almost 25% higher. Trolling is so efficient about placing and keeping lures in the strike zone and covering water. The flip side is that all the fish over 8 pounds came on flies! I also find it much easier to work a school of fish without spooking them with a fly rod. A stealthier approach with a seldom seen fly/presentation almost makes up for the efficiency of gear.

Another side note...I get so excited about fly fishing that I pay more attention to details. I spend more time checking for sharp hooks, leader frays,fouled flies etc. As a result I fish better and harder while making less mistakes.
Good Fishing
Nick

Bill Kiene semi-retired
02-28-2006, 10:03 AM
Back in the '70s a group of us was wading at the mouth of the Feather River for Shad in the afternoon in April/May and then as the sun went down we switched to Stripers. Maybe 6 of us were spread out on the sandbar at the mouth throwing bucktail streamers in hopes of getting a Striper. It was a low water year so we could wade easily there.

After an hour or so a young man waded out with a spinning rod and a Rebel lure. He caught about 3 Stripers and then left with them all in about 30 minutes.

We all got skunked with flies that evening.

We all theorized about that evening for years. We figured that with plugs that vibrate you don't need to be very good.

We did have our nights there though back then.

slimfishin's
02-28-2006, 10:49 AM
That's a really good point. I've had similar experiences with gear fishing at low light. It seems that the flies don't put out enough "vibe" to call up the fish when the conditions are turbid and the bass are feeding "by brail". Those big rattling lures probably are an easier target for stripers to locate under low light conditions. Flies probably work just as well when stripers are locating food primarily by sight and less by feel or smell.
:?:
SF

Tony Buzolich
02-28-2006, 06:23 PM
Bill, maybe I'm giving up too much here but you should try Dennis Pierce's Wiggle Disc in front of that 3/0 the next time you go striper fishing in the dark. 8)

I'm pickin' up good vibrations
Those stripers give me excitations
(Oom bop bop good vibrations) :lol:

TONY

Adam Grace
02-28-2006, 09:03 PM
Sing it Tony, sing it!

HC
02-28-2006, 10:47 PM
I never tried one, but here is a link to the site. http://www.wigglefin.com/rigging_trout.html
Do they cast ok on a fly rig? HC

Adam Grace
02-28-2006, 11:28 PM
There are also "Magic Heads" available for tying flies with similar cups to place in front of your fly to create extra movement.

Kiene's stocks them.

slimfishin's
03-01-2006, 10:31 AM
Well, a friend and I went into the Delta yesterday for a few hours. Granted, we were fishing a spot that has been producing pretty well for us lately. We fished artificial gear, no bait. We have concluded that it works. :wink:

If you sell your soul to the Devil and start fishing gear, make sure you use a big enough trebble to snatch it back!

SF

Bill Kiene semi-retired
03-01-2006, 10:44 AM
Andy Guibord says that most of the big stripers caught on flies in the past few years seem to be in mid-day?

But he does say we all get our early anyways.

slimfishin's
03-01-2006, 10:55 AM
I think a lot of it has to do with being in the right place at the right time. That means finding some fish when the conditions are right. I seem to always have an "adjustment period" when I get on the water where it takes a few hours before I get the feel for what is going on. Rarely have I started the boat, ran to the first spot, and immediately began hooking up. This has only happened a few times when the tide was ripping right as I got started. I also haven't fished enough to distinguish what water will hold big fish vs small fish. Unti I do, I just fish everything that looks good and take what I can get.

If the fish are scatterd, my experience suggests its all about linking habitat with occupants. You may have to knock on a lot of doors before someone answers. By then, its mid-day already! 8)

SF

randy
03-02-2006, 08:29 PM
I think " depends on water & conditions" has merit. One year at Frank's Tract in good viz water I alternated for 30 minites rattle traps & clousers for 3 days. The rattle traps had a slight edge. day in day out with different conditions over a season I think the gear guys would spank you --but thats not effecting my paycheck.

Tracy Chimenti
03-05-2006, 11:19 AM
Conventional tacke no doubt affords an angler more options and greater efficiency. For instance, while many fly fishermen use a side-finder to locate fish on the Delta, I like to fan cast (in the blind) with a rattle trap, pattern/colored to take advantage of clarity conditions. I can make 10-casts and cover 50-square yards of water in a minute with a noisey, speed burning crank bait. I figure a fly rod's going to cover maybe 1/10th that, being the streamer is generally silent and appeals maily to a visual sense. Once I find them, I generally put it down and grab the long rod. I like the grab! Then again, sometimes i have to tone down on the noise, as even a splashy spook, or chattering diver, will send a touchy lineside scurrying.

That said, hot sticks like Blanton, Andy, or Joe Shirshac know where the good holding areas are, are generally trying to stay away from schoolies (that eat rattletraps), target only the biggest pigs, and they know just how to approach without spooking, and how to suck the smartest fish in.

And I really think streamers make better looking lures-- if tied properly. And a big, old, smart fish will attack a slinky, active streamer faster than a plug he sees on a day-in, day-out basis. Chances are, though, they're going to find the plug first, due to noise and visual senses being affected and number of casts per minute.

Here's another: I think a hot stick using his "go-to" lure will outfish a bait guy 10:1. Think about it, you can take it to them, rather than you waiting on the fish! This would seem especially true for black bass guys, who can decide between dead-sticking a plastic, cranking for reflex strikes, ripping, doodling, jigging, flipping, top-water, moss walking, buzzing or slow-rolling spinner baits, etc.

The only time when bait is more effective for me, is at night when I'm sleeping. A 9-inch river pike on a long leader with an ounce and a half. Man am I ready for some good weather!

Rickey Noel Mitchell
04-03-2006, 06:23 AM
I agree with Tracy on the hot sticks. however here's my view.
Being a kayak fisherman most of my fishing buddies are conventional guys, for that matter so am I about 25% of the time. My system is if the fish are deeper than say 30 ft I’ll use conventional gear. Rattle traps and swim baits are hard to beat and most of the time when I’m being out fished that’s what my friends are using. At one time during the last few years I had asked my self just why do I fly fish? Answer--because it’s an art and a challenge at the same time. You can go out and observe the nature of your fishery then go back to your vice and create your own lure. Fly tying is probably the main reason I flyfish. I’ve never gotten over the feeling of catching a good fish on a fly I made. When I catch a good fish on the long rod, my rod comes to life. But then I’ll spend a few hundred bucks on a flyrod;I’ve never spent over a hundred on a conventional rod. There’s also that zen that you can get when your casting well on a flyrod.
There are a few things I do that a purest might not call flyfishing such as fish flies with spinners blades on them. George Glazeners spinster is one of my favorite flies. I’ll also Carolina rig my flies on conventional gear.
I started doing kayak fishing tournaments in fresh and saltwater this year on a regular and somewhat professional basest. In a kayakfishing tournament it's lure only , and what ever rod rod you want ot use.
I’ll definitely find out which is better--flyfishing or conventional. I know what I prefer and that’s flyfishing.
I also know sometimes you have to go with what the fish prefer.

Darian
04-03-2006, 10:41 AM
Ever see a Black Bass or Redfish tournament fisherman choose to use fly gear over conventional during a tournament (when the money's on the line) :?: :?:

flygolf
04-03-2006, 11:38 AM
Hi Darian,

I don't think that anyone is debating that conventional gear will out fish fly gear. I wonder what would happen in those type of tournaments if they allowed you to weigh each fish caught with a fly 5 times! I bet you might have a few more anglers flogging the waters with a fly rod.

Darian
04-03-2006, 02:04 PM
Am I missing something here :?: :?: :?: After re-reading the posts, it sounds like everyones trying to make a case that either type of gear will outperform the other on "any given day" (to qoute the football wags) or under specific circumstances. So, respectfully, I must disgree with your understanding.

Don't read anything into my point. I don't really care whether one will outperform the other under any circumstances, at all. I was only stating the obvious. I prefer to fish with fly gear but fish with both whenever I want to not because one outperforms the other. 8) 8)

steve sullivan
04-14-2006, 03:55 PM
Thanks for the link. I would really like to fish out of the same boat with someone using "conventional" tackle and see if fly fishing acutally works better. My gut is telling me that we would take them? :D

Katz

really? If you are using a clouser, couldnt they just attach a clouser, attach 2-3 feet of line to the clouser, then attach their lure to the line?

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Double_D
05-18-2006, 07:58 PM
I would like to add to this thread....I plug the surf for Striper's, there are 3 groups of fishermen at the surf, top water guys(I'm a top water guy) metail guys and bait guy's.......the metal and bait guys think they catch more fish, maybe they do...I tell them that they just don't get it.....it's not how many fish we catch it's how we catch them.....yeah it's cool if a fish takes you bait, yeah it's cool throwing hair raisers when you reeling in and a fish takes the metal and it's fish on.....but there is nothing like working a 3 to 5.oz custom wooden plug in the surf(pencil popper,Pike,Spookster,Darter,Polaris Popper) and that Striper comes up and just mugs your plug, it's all about the take down, and they just don't get it.....me being a top water guy striper's on the fly is the next step for me.....because it's not how many fish you catch, it's how you catch them, I think fly fishing for Striper's is going to be fun....this will be just one more weapon in my in-shore Striper game.

JerryInLodi
05-18-2006, 08:28 PM
I've worked a school of fish with five or six fish landed and then watched a boat trolling rebels or rapalas pass through without a strike in either direction.

I've cast after they passed and the bite continued.

I've also watched trollers hook fish and if they don't turn around and work the area again, I'll move in and cast, generally picking up a few fish in the same area as the previous strike.

It's hard to judge whether the trollers are knowledgeable and it's hard to know exactly how many fish they hook. Many catch their two apiece and are off the water early. Others seem to troll all day with few strikes.

The absolute biggest advantage that hardware people have is that they cover MUCH MORE WATER. I've seen fly guys stand and cast while anchored, to the same circle for over a half hour. Give it up guys, move on. Buy a trolling motor or set up a wind drift.

While stripers are not territorial like largemouth, and they move, they usually move rather slowly, in overlapping circles. Waiting for them to move to you can make for a long day.

Whether you're fly fishing or throwing junk, move and cover some water.

Darian
05-18-2006, 09:31 PM
"mug your plug"..... :?: :? :? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: