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Chris V
02-08-2006, 10:23 AM
Hi All,

I've been reading the board for a while, but finally decided to chime in.

My question is on glues... specifically- what types of glues to you use when finishing small flies?

I've watched several professional tyers use what seems to be much thinner glue than I am using. I have tried both Dave's Flexament and Hard Head. However, when finishing small flies- both of these glues seem too thick.

Should I be thinning the glue significantly? Is there another type I should try?

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

Darian
02-08-2006, 11:58 AM
Hi Chris,..... Welcome to Kiene's BB community.... Good question concerning adhesives. I tend to use Dave's Flexament for freshwater patterns (large/small). It can be thinned easily and penetrates the tying materials well.... 8) Once thinned, it can be dropped from a bodkin onto the head. Take a piece of monofilament and clear the eye with it to finish the fly.... 8) 8)

Having said that, I have a DVD of Craig Matthews and his guides, Blue Ribbon Flies, tying small caddis/mayfly/stone fly patterns (down to size #20 :shock: ) and they do not use adhesive at all on the smaller patterns nor do they discuss the use of same. All of which leads me to think that they probably figure a small fly will be destroyed by fish/slime over the coarse of a day so it really isn't necessary to cement them. 8) 8)

Of course, there's always crazy glue 8) or the old standby of thinned varnish :lol: :lol:

I use Flexament and Zap A Gap or Crazy Glue for everything but the head on all salt water patterns and Epoxy for those (heads).... 8) 8) Softex is great for creating certain types of flies, as well.... 8) 8) 8)

Hairstacker
02-08-2006, 02:55 PM
Well, to finish off heads I use Sally Hansen's clear nail polish. Has worked well enough on flies ranging from about a size 1/0 down to at least size 20.

StevenOjai
02-08-2006, 03:13 PM
Hi Chris

I tend to agree with Darian. I find that I usually do not apply any head cement on flies smaller than 18. I like to use Sally's Hard as Nails for a head cement. To anchor hair or thread wraps, I'll use Super Glue.
My problem with Dave's Flexment is that it tends to thicken quickly over time. I've been told to use Tuoluene as a thinner but the closest I can find the stuff is in Lacquer thinner and it really dosen't do a great job.

Some tiers stay totally away from using any head cement since they feel that, even if you clean the eye, enough residue remains to effect the surface of the tippet material. Something soft like Dave's Flexament would not seem to pose a problem like this to me.

Steve

Adam Grace
02-08-2006, 08:36 PM
Chris,

For small flies, #18-24,my favorite is Griff's Thin cement.

For medium to larger sized trout flies, #8-16, I LOVE Griff's thick cement. Very easy to apply one medium sized drop at a time with the use of a bodkin or needle. Just the right consistancy so that it doesn't drop off the bodkin too quickly. I higly recomend it. I used to use Umpqua's Flex-O-ment but it dried and thickened up way too fast in my opinion. It is also just a little too thick in consistancy fresh from the jar.

Squeeze bottle applicators can plug up and are too much of a hassle in my opinion.

For large streamers the brushed on cements are great, although they're hard to control while applying the cement to the heads of small trout flies. For streamers and other larger flies the burshed on cements are pretty convenient. "Harder than Hull" is nice, but for my striper streamers I use Sally Hansens "Hard As Nails" with nylon, found in drug stores like Longs. The brush and quick drying nature is great for large streamers. Hard as Nails is a great head finisher!

I don't use zap-a-gap as much as I used to. I hate how it gets all white and discolored as a head cement. I will use the zap to permanently bond parts of flies that get the most beat up by fish, like striper flies, but never as a head finisher.

Sorry that I went on so much but I just wanted to convey my humble opinions clearly.

Darian
02-08-2006, 10:19 PM
Hey guys,.... I've used the thinner put out by Umpqua to thin Flexament with some success. Anybody tried acetone for a thinner :?: :?: It sure works on a bunch of other glues including Sally Hansen's.... 8) 8) 8)

Adam Grace
02-09-2006, 01:18 AM
I've used the thinner and with the correct amount it can work well. I never really got the ratio mixture just right myself. I got tired of having to thin out the cement that much, but Flexoment is a very popular cement. It was Kiene's most popular head cement.

I'm just not it's biggest fan.

Terry Thomas
02-09-2006, 09:17 AM
Here's a second for Griff's thin cement. I never use cement on flies smaller than #16. Griff's provides good penetrating action. A second application with Hard As Hull works quite well for me on larger flies.

Chris V
02-09-2006, 09:39 AM
Thanks for all the replies guys...sounds like there are some other products out there that I should try. I'll pick up both Griff's thin cement and Sallly's "Hard as Nails" and try them both.

Regarding the Flexament- I've tried the Umpqua thinner myself also, but have found it hard to get the consistency right - same as you Adam. Also, as Steven pointed out- when you use the Flexament alot it tends to dry out fairly quickly & you have to use more thinner. Perhaps I should try Tuoluene or acetone as a thinner until my bottle runs out? I imagine I could get pick up acetone at a local hardware store...anyone know where to get Tuoluene :?:

Thanks again for all the responses- this is exactly what I needed. Great board! :D :

Darian
02-09-2006, 09:43 AM
Question: do any of you use Hard As Nails to coat a 5 minute epoxy head to keep it from yellowing.... Is that an urban legend or does it work :?: :?: :?:

Adam Grace
02-09-2006, 09:58 AM
I have used for that same method. It has appeared to stop the yellowing.

I have simply not covered some epoxy jobs and they've turned out fine. Jay Murakoshi or Ken Hanely would be better off telling you guys about their extensive usage with epoxy, but I responded first, so don't be too surprised if I get contradicted by their many more years of ff knowledge.

I have seen some epoxies yellow for sure, but if I remember correctly, when I mixed the resin and the hardener my measurements were slightly off and caused the yellowing. I think I remember hearing somebody's theory that if the mixture isn't really close it will yellow more/faster than a properly mixed batch.

Never-the-less, I have coated some of my epoxy heads with Hard As Nails more out of superstition than anything else. I can't remember any of the H.A.N. coated heads yellowing.

Does anyone else have any experience with this?

Brian
02-12-2006, 05:16 PM
No one mentioned Loon UV Knot Sense so I will. I've been using it make my heads on saltwater flies, it cures ultra fast with the high power Loon UV light and is definatly less messy. When I'm done I hang the fly in a sunny window for the deep hard cure. A lot of the tyers down in Colorado have gone to using it and that's where I saw how easy it was to work with. Makes bonefish bitters and shrimp patters a piece of cake.

Darian
02-12-2006, 06:18 PM
Hi Brian,.... I've been reading about use of UV Knot Sense on another BB but haven't really considered it due, in the main, to the expense involved.
UV Knot Sense is surely more convenient but the volume purchased appears to be much less than you get with epoxy components for increased cost. 8) 8)

In spite of that, I'll give it a try and see if the convenience offsets my Scottish nature.... :roll: :roll:

PaulC
02-12-2006, 07:57 PM
Hey Darian,
I've been using UV knotsense for a while on alot of surf patterns. Good stuff and I'm irish/scottish.
Maybe the irish side is swaying me towards the knotsense. (Drink a guiness....throw it in the sun...done!)
All around its good stuff for fast cure and does not seem to yellow as much.
However, I've found messing more with epoxy head flies that it is (A) too expensive for large production and (B) it has a viscosity which is great for a small number of flies but in larger numbers sag starts to show up. Fly driers are most likely better for that case just using devcon epoxy.
But for a half dozen here and there of small epoxy job flies, I'm still curing them on my patio at work at lunch break. lol. Plus being able to fix surf flies in the car to keep using em if they're the hot pattern is a plus.
-Paul

PS This type of epoxy has been around a while and was used quite a bit in fiberoptic component assembly to reduce cycle time caused by conventional thermoset adhesives. I keep meaning to look around on the net to find something in cheaper cost, but have yet to fninsh up my last tube. Maybe in a couple months...

Brian
02-12-2006, 08:15 PM
Darian, I have tied 2 dozen flies using Knot Sense instead of epoxy and was wondering myself how much I can get out of a tube. Gordon from Anglers Roost in Ft Collins, CO tells me that he can get many dozen of his Gordo's Big Eye fly from a tube of Knot Sense. Since I only tie a few flies a night using knot sense works well for me

Brian
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/Wyomingflyfisher/GordosBigEye1.jpg
[/img]http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/Wyomingflyfisher/GordosBigEye.jpg

Darian
02-12-2006, 10:03 PM
Nice looking flies Brian.... 8) I do have to say that, even with the testimonial, I can't imagine that a larger number of flies tied with UV KS is more economical than Epoxy.... Maybe your tyer friend is getting a big price break, tho. 8)

As Paul says, there's a lot of convenience involved with using UV KS but with larger flies, like the Sea Habits, etc., I don't see much advantage during the initial tying sessions.... Maybe for on-site repairs. :?