Question about spawning fish

[Eyecatch Tinytrout]

Hello, everyone...

I'd like to know if anyone has an opinion/evidence on this: does catching and then releasing a fish on it's spawning run significantly reduce it's chances of survival and succesful spawning? As physicaly taxing as the act is, even on species that can live to spawn again, it seems that all the energy used up in a fight with a fisherman could be fatal. Yet anadramous fish are targeted on their runs, and some waters remain open during the spawning season for resident fish, like Putah Creek.

Do anglers who regularly go for steelhead and salmon have measures in place that minimize the possibilty of hooking up a fish that's close to spawning? I'm pleading ignorance on this. Any thoughts? Thanks,

Tiny

[sculpin]

Tiny
I have no biological evidence to back this up,but catching spawning fish isn't going to help them survive. Some waters in my area (Southern Oregon) close for the fish to spawn which I think is great. The upper Rogue switch's to fly only during the salmon spawn to keep the flossers away from them. I always hook a few salmon during the spawn even trying not to. What I do is when I'm sure it isn't a steelhead I break them off rather than fight them to death on to light of gear. Another thing to be aware of is don't walk on the reds built by the spawners. As far as steelhead spawning they have no protection . It seems like most folks here kinda know when to leave the steelhead alone ,or the Sping Salmon show and their buisy chasing them.

Mark

[PatrickM]

Sulpin,
How's the Rogue been so far this year? I heard that you guys were getting some rain up there and the river was coming up pretty good. Do you ever go down and fish the Klamath?

[sculpin]

Sulpin,
How's the Rogue been so far this year? I heard that you guys were getting some rain up there and the river was coming up pretty good. Do you ever go down and fish the Klamath?


Pm
Over all the fishing has been good this year for me. The numbers of fish are down but we did get a late shot of fish with the weather. Fishing conditions have been tough since the weather showed up though. High cold water has been the norm lately and when the storms pass we are in the cold fog so no warming of the water. Also the boys up at the dam have been messing with the flows the last little bit. We are still catching fish but have to work for them.
Because of the above Bubzilla and I are going to go nose around the upper Klamath next week. It's not a lot farther away than the upper river. I hear there isn't any fog down there. :D
Mark

[Digger]

What's a out of state short term license cost up there?

[sculpin]

What's a out of state short term license cost up there?


1 day$12 - 2day $22.50-3day$33-4 day $43 - 7 day $43.75

I know ouch!!!!

Mark

[Darian]

Interesting that we would address this subject in relation to only two of the many anadromous fish in California.... and Oregon. :? :?

Is it any more noble to restrain fishing in the same riffles for Steelhead when Salmon are spawning there :?: :?: Or, for that matter, Steelhead, Browns, Lahontan Cutthroat or other Trout when they're spawning :?: :?: We certainly don't concern ourselves when we fish for Shad or Stripers.... Is it because they're broadcast spawners :?: :?: Don't Stirpers and Shad expend great amounts of energy when hooked; energy best used for spawning :?: :?:

Altho, I agree with the premise that hooking and landing spawners can't be overly good for them, there's not a lot of evidence (written) to draw on to determine the precise impact. It seems to me that a lot of the objection to fishing for Salmon/Steelhead while on the redds dates back into medieval Europe when Atlantic Salmon were the property of royalty and the rules were set by them.... I can recall passages from some of my older books that that would condemn our modern Salmon/Steelhead fishing locations and techniques.... Indeed, isn't there a school of thought in Oregon that the North fork of the Umpqua River is to be fished only with a floating line and dry fly for Steelhead :?: :?: Seems like a step backwards (...and a bit elitist) to me :? :?

The debate over what is actually fly fishing and where it should be plied will continue long after I'm gone but I view it all as fun but only valid if there's some real evidence to establish a position one way or the other. 8) 8) So,.... I guess my position is that let your conscience be your guide. :D :D

[jbird]

Good post Darian. Your take on the N umpqua is dead on by the way.

J

[PatrickM]

Hey Sculpin,
Please give us a report on the Klamath, if you get a chance. I'm going to be up that way in a couple of weeks and wanted to check out the Klamath somewhere down below I5. Never fished that stretch, so any info would be a big help.
Thanks, and good luck.

[sculpin]

Darian
I have never fished the N Umpqua because the feed back I get from those that do is it's a very "elitist" type of place. I get enough of that with the indicator, no indicator stuff and don't have to drive very far to get it. :D

Mark

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

You can call the Ted Fay Fly Shop in Dunsmuir for a report on the Upper Klamath River.

(530) 235-2969

[OregonSalmon]

I think what happened on the N. Umpqua was that the upturned nose guys who only like to fish greased line became jeolous of the nymph indicator guys. Their argument was that since it was so effective the fish were being stressed. Looks more like they wanted the water all to themselves.
I don't know why they didn't just go all the way: only white men who average over a million a year who own enough fishing gear to feed a family of four for a decade have the priveledge. Make it a gated river with armed guards. Keep the riff raff out.
Elitist bastards is what I say!!! This country is quickly degenerating into the "haves" and "have nots" and in my case, the "don't have sheet", and now we have class warfare on the stream. This would not be a problem except I'm on the lowest rung of the ladder. Not good to not be the King.

[Rick J]

While I generally agree with the comments regarding the N Umpqua, I have mixed feelings. That river is special and tradition has a big part in what makes it special. One of the traditions is if someone is on a run, you do not go in the run until he has fished through.

Many of the indicator guys did not fish through - they just camped on a run and force fed a fish until it opened up. That is what pissed me off, not the fact that they could catch more fish. I sure am not a purist on that river - although I did not use indicators I sure used a heavily weighted ugly bug and tumble bugged the fish - a very effective method. But I still fished through a run and moved on.

By the way, I believe that the use of wreighted flies is again allowed after October.

[bubzilla]

[Terry Thomas]

Budzilla,
IMHO, you are right on the money with your post. I don't know if we are hindering the fish on their spawning run, however, I do question those anglers who choose to fish for steelhead when they are on the beds in late March and April. We see it all the time on the American and other valley streams.

[Darian]

Hey guys,.... Rather than making this a debate over techniques, etc., let's get back to original question and the part I'm interested in; fishing for anadromous spawners.... In my original post I asked why we were so concerned about fishing over Salmon/Steelhead spawners when we thought nothing of fishing for Shad/Stripers/Bluegills/Black Bass when they're spawning (paraphrased).... :?: :?:

Are Salmon/Steelhead so valuable that it's more important to protect them when they're spawning than other species of fish :?: :?:

Of course, in Europe Atlantic Salmon were the property of royalty. Commoners weren't allowed to fish for them or even possess them on penalty of imprisonment or death.... That's a very strong tradition. I believe that at least a protion of that tradition is what carried over for protection of the Pacific Salmon/Trout. Most coastal streams had seasonal closures and area closures for protection of Salmon/Steelhead spawners. They've been modified but are still in place. 8)

Valley rivers have fewer of these restrictions.... Maybe because the runs are larger and year round (as in the Sacramento) :?: :? :?

At any rate, No such protections are affored Stripers or Shad. Even Black Bass and Bluegill enjoy gamefish status.... :( :( We (all who fish them) target Shad/Stripers when they are in the act of spawning. Wonder what the impact of all of that is :?: :?:

There's certainly economic value associated with those fisheries. 8) The only thing close to a debate in this area is on Blanton's site where they're pushing for slot limits for Striped Bass.....

Anyone here have something to contribute :?: :?:

[Hairstacker]

Darian, personally, I don't fish for spawning bass, and I don't make a distinction between them and spawning steelhead/salmon as far as "value."

Ycflyfisher -- appreciate you making the point from the other side, as it helps provide a sense of balance to the whole tradition vs. nymphers discussion. As you suggested, seems like there's a lot of misunderstanding and miscommunication going on. Folks also seem to be a little touchy about the whole thing on both sides. I don't classify myself on either side of the divide, but I sure hope everyone here can reach an amicable understanding of one another.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I hope we can let this slow down some because it is a volatile subject.

Kind of like talking about politics and religion.

A no win situation.

[Rick J]

I gotta think hooking a fish on its spawning bed can't do much to help!! Will it stop the fish from spawning? Probably depends on alot of factors - how weak the fish is initially, where in the spawning process.

Darian asked about broadcast spawners - what can be difficult with them is it is not always obvious when they are spawning. For all these fish - from steelhead through shad, your only shot at these fish is when they are in the river and they are in the river for only one thing and that is to spawn.

Is there really a big difference if you cast to and hook a fish a few days before it begins to spawn? Certainly they are likely more vunerable on their spawning beds and I personally would not knowingly target a trout, steelhead or any other fish that I knew was actively spawning but I sure will target them in pre-spawn conditons!!

[sculpin]

Yea we got a little off topic with the Umpqua discussion. :D

Darian makes some good points about why we don't worry about spawning fish other than trout,salmon and steelhead. I guess for Stripers and Shad they are non native and in some circles(not mine) don't deserve any protection. With the warm water species it seems all that's needed is water for them to do well. Take almost any pond and throw some in and they take off. It seems like the only fish that have trouble making it around us are the salmon trout and steelhead. In smaller streams and rivers they are very vunerable when spawning and when late in the spawning cycle have the food value of a turd. Also I think a lot of the attention they receive is because they are a popular game fish, more so than other species.

Mark

[Darian]

Rick,.... Good point about broadcast spawners. 8) It isn't always obvious when they're spawning.... Rhetorically, since Stripers are experiencing some stress, wouldn't it be prudent to reduce stressors in the area we can control (reduced fishing in traditional spawning areas, e.g. Colusa area on the Sacto River) :?: :?: Well, maybe fishing for Stripers in those areas doesn't have the same impact as the effort to complete the act is not as difficult as with Salmonids :?: :?

Mark,.... As you've pointed out, the relative value of one species of fish over another may be their popularity.... Each may have a different relative value when economic impact is considered. For example, Stripers in this area have a big following and are responsible for the maniacal spending streaks for boats/equipment, etc. Of course, so are Salmonids.

There doesn't seem to be any easy way to address this question.... :? :? Not sure we can get much else out of this.... 8)

[derbyshc]

Just my 2 cents. The main concern, I feel, that people have fishing for spawners (specifically salmon and steelhead) is these fish spawn only once in their lifetimes. I know steelhead can spawn multiple times, but if I remember correctly from Combs' first book on steelhead, more steelhead only spawn once than steelhead that spawn multiple times. So preventing these fish from spawning will reduce the numbers of fish you will see in three to six years. The other fish mentioned in this thread (stripers, bluegills, smallmouth, and largemouth) can spawn multiple times. This provides more of a buffer than fish who spawn once.

In regard to the NF Umpqua issue, I think it has clearly been noted as to why the regulations have been changed to floating line and no weighted fly during a certain portion of the year. There are a finite number of fish, each having a finite energy reserve to carry them on their journey from ocean to spawning bed, and hopefully back to the ocean. Catch them too many times, and they may not have enough energy left to sustain them. Some fishing methods or choices of some fishers help them to more selectively target these summer runs or are very efficient or persistant. Even if these individuals are not snagging fish, given the clear water to sight fish for them, and given enough casts, you are probably going to have a good chance to drift that fly into a fish's mouth. This problem or situation is a direct result of the river's geology. It is not a freestone river like the McKenzie. The Umpqua has much volcanic rock, and the river cutting through this rock has created a lot of drop, pool, drop places. The river does not change very much with flooding so few old holding spots are lost and new ones made. The fish rest consistently in the same spots over decades. This makes it easier to find them.

Our effectiveness depends on our choice of fishing method. The argument for swinging flies through pools is to cover as much water as possible, assuming there are fish present and that aggressive fish will try and take your fly or that the more water you cover, the more fish you will put your fly in front of, and increase the chance that a fish will indeed eat your fly. This is analogous to shotgun shells: lots of shot, so probably one of them will hit the bird. The nymphing in one spot mentality is more of a spot and stalker. One the fisher finds a fish, the fisher won't leave until the fish is hooked, the fish leaves, or the fisher gets impatient or frustrated and leaves. Since I have found a fish, I will not leave it. Sort of the "don't leave fish to find more fish" idea.

An argument can likely be made that by swinging flies through many pools, a stationary fish is only going to have one to four looks at your fly for each pass through a pool. Nymphing in one spot can present the fly a large number of times to the fish. Now you have multiple chances to hook the fish.

I hope we can come to some concensus on how to effectively regulate angling methods for these fish. I read several years ago (I don't know if this is still currently done) that in easter Canada, there were special restrictions in place for those fishing for Atlantic salmon. These particular rules restricted the angler (fishing with a guide, I think mandatory if not a Canadian resident) to stop fishing once a certain number of fish were hooked or played, not necessarily landed. So if I had to quit after hooking four fish, it did not matter if that occurred in my first hour of fishing or throughout the day. Once x number of fish were hook, I had to stop. I don't think a lottery for river sections and rule like this are the best way to prevent fish from being caught too many times. But I certainly don't want our current situation to come to that extreme. Of course our general problem is not enough fish for the growing number of people fishing for them, regardless if fish populations are increasing or decreasing.

Thanks for reading all of my message. I just had to voice my concern, having fished the river several times.

[Darian]

You must've let this subject stew a bit before participating :lol: :lol: Thoughtful post, as well. 8) I'm not sure I gree that the majority of Steelhead only spawn a single time. Altho there must be some info on that somewhere, I haven't seen a reference to it, myself. In any event, anadromous species (with the exception of Pacific Salmon) can and do spawn multiple times whether broadcast spawners or not and prevention of their spawning has had a negative impact on their populations. For me, the value of one fish in relation to others is difficult to quantify. I like each for differing reasons. It would probaly be easier for a commercial or subsistance fisherman to attempt to address this question since there is a "need" involved instead of a "want".

I've never fished the No Fork of the Umpqua but have read as much about it and it's storied Steelhead as I can find. It does appear to be a special place and fishery. Not unlike the Smith River is to Californians. 8) 8)

I agree that there does need to be some regulatory solution to protecting special fisheries/places. However, reaching consensus for regulating the North Fork of the Umpqua doesn't appear to be somethng easily accomplished (given the recent history of attemps to regulate up there). My take on a solution would involve regulating take or seasons with a small exception for equipment. Like other topics on this BB, I would advocate barbless hooks, no drift boats and flies only; but not many other tackle restrictions for the No. Fork Umpqua, only. 8) 8) 8)

One post indicates that a tradition on the No. Fork apprently dictates that only one fisherman may enter a run or hole to fish at a time and may fish until thru with it. Then another my enter and, then, another, etc. Each fishing until he/she is thru. Is that any different than a nymph fisherman entering a run and concentrating on a particular portion of that same run until thru :?: :?: Rotation thru a run appears to be a lost tradition on rivers in the States. Maybe that's a result of the rise of different, more effective techniques to catch fish than swinging flies. :? Who knows :?: :?:

At any rate, I hope this topic gave us all a chance to re-evaluate the way we look at all of the fish we catch (....including Carp). :D :D :D