Middle Rogue Steelhead/Sea Run Cutthroat

[Langenbeck]

Saturday behind the house hooked & lost a big fish of between 28-30". Hook just pulled out. This AM went wade fishing & caught & released this 12" sea run cutthroat. They are really a pretty fish. Since we are 101 river miles from the ocean I only catch 1-3 per season. Looks like the Rogue will be unfishable within 24 hours as it is currently raining hard and rain is in the forecast through Friday.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/gordonl/12Cutthroat28Nov05.jpg

[Hairstacker]

Very nice Gordon, that IS a pretty fish. Bet it's even prettier in person. 8)

[OregonSalmon]

Gordon,
Not only a pretty fish, but back in the good old days when you could whack them, great eating. A couple of guiding buddies here will fish them with dries between likely steelhead spots. They believe the 'cuts are making a comeback. Hey, maybe that zero limit rule does work...who'd a thunk it?

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I was just on the phone with Bob Borden, owner of Hareline, a major fly tying materials company in Oregon. Bob use to chase those searun Cutthroats some time back but says they declined and he has not been lately. He said there might be a little come back going on now.

I would like to catch just one.

A giant one is anything near 20inches.

I guess they are from our north coast rivers all the way north to Alaska?

[Langenbeck]

Bill: Here is a picture of a 17" sea-run cutthroat that I caught last November just below the house. They are a very pretty fish.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/gordonl/17SeaRunCutthroat16Nov04One.jpg

[jbird]

Ive caught about a half dozen in the 21-23" range in the gold hill area. Last year I got one that size and I got the camera out to take a picture. It was then that I noticed I had dunked my camera somehow and it was completely ruined :oops:

Here is one from last month that was a solid 18"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v283/jbird35/DSC02991.jpg

[Jasonh]

Those sure are pretty fish!

Jason Hartwick

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I hear they are very tough fighters especially on small coastal streams.

[Darian]

I used to catch some Sea Run Cutts in Tillas Slough near the Ship-a-Shore resort on the Smith River at high tide... When hooked, they were out of the water more than in. :shock: We used small, bright silvery patterns. :D Later, I fished for them on the west side of vancouver Island, BC. Up there, they used a bucktail pattern they called a California Coachman (....except for the yellow body, it wasn't anything like the traditional Calfornia Coachman :? ).... Lotsa fun near the ocean, tho. :D :D

[Tony Buzolich]

Just to change the subject a little, do they have a run of browns up there too?

I caught one last year on the Trinity and was told it was somewhat rare.

Do any of you have pictures of sea-run browns that you've caught?
TONY

[Darian]

Hi Tony,.... I don't recall ever catching a Sea Run Brown.... :? Not sure whether there're any in the Smith or on Vancouver Island, either. :? :?

Sure would like to catch one but they're not overly numeorus so I've never targeted them.... 8) 8)

[jbird]

I havnt heard of browns in the Smith either. I dont know of any river along the west coast that has em. My friend caught one in the estuaries on the east shore of vancouver island a few years back.
j

[bubzilla]

Nice fish guys! Not that it really matters, and I know we partially hashed this out on the Jefferson board a couple years ago, but according to ODFW biologists searuns don't go above the Illinois on the Rogue. What we have above the Illinois, according to the biologists, are fluvial cutts. They migrate but don't go to the sea. Who knows if they're right, but scale samples and calcium ratios don't usually lie. I've seen a guide who shall remain nameless claiming to have caught large searun cutts well into the upper river, and the chances of that, given what the biologists suggest, are extremely low.

P.S. Is there any consensus as to whether there are searun browns on the Trinity? Most of the anglers I've talked to think there are, and I've seen a couple pictures of fish that definitely looked like they might be--of course, that's not a very scientific or conclusive way to judge whether they were ever in the ocean or not.

[Tony Buzolich]

I've got a couple of pictures somewhere if I can find them but this was definitely a brown. The fish was almost totally silver but had the characteristic red spots over the body.

Even went up the street to buy more film so as to get a picture or two.
TONY

[bubzilla]

There are definitely browns in the Trinity. No question about that. Just wasn't sure if there was a definitive statement, from biologists, as to whether there were any searun variety. Lots of fishing literature refers to there being both resident and searun browns on the Trinity--just didn't know if there was some actual science behind it or if it was primarly some of the arm chair stuff we usually have on the Rogue.

[Adam Grace]

I caught my first sea-run cutt during my first trip to the Rogue. It was not as large as the fish above but it was beautiful, all 12 inches. I was very excited to catch another species of fish.

[Darian]

Hey Bub,.... As you point out, there're definitely Browns in the trinity. 8) It's mentioned in some California DFG pub's but mostly in passing which leads me to believe that there's not much scientific evidence available. :?

I haven't caught any like Tony has but I've seen some of the "sea run" variety and they have the appearance of having been in the salt chuck... Not sure that means much. :? Maybe they only went into the estuary. :? :?

Anyway, they're certainly good looking and from what I've seen/heard, they're very good fighters, as well. :D :D

[bubzilla]

Thanks Darian. I talked with a guy once about fishing the Trinity for browns and he said he did it a lot back in the 70s. Supposedly it was incredible. Guess how they regulate the dam changed things. He was talking about getting HUGE browns in there (well over 10 lbs.) on a regular basis. That would have been pretty nice to go along with a steelhead fishery.

I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a lot of scientific information available regarding searun browns on the Trinity--there really isn't much on any run of any fish on any river at this point. We pretty much know jack about anadromous species when you really think about it. Would be cool now since they can make electronics so compact and can track by satellite if they would study where salmon and steelhead go and what they do once they leave the river, for example. Pretty much everything we know in that regard now is an educated guess as opposed to scientific fact.

P.S. if anyone's interested in checking the study indicating that searun cutthroat don't return above the Illinois River on the Rogue, the bibliographical information is as follows:

Tomasson, T. 1978. Age and growth of cutthroat trout, Salmo clarki clarki, in the Rogue River, Oregon. Master’s thesis. Oregon State University, Corvallis.

[Darian]

Ya know,... I'd be willing to bet that even tho there isn't a lot of info about anadromous fish in the public domain, there's probably a bunch in commercial/private hands.... :? :? With current commercial satellite and sonar tracking capabilities, that use has got to've come up.... 8)

Wow!!! Talk about paranoia.... :lol: :lol:

[sculpin]

Some where in the last 6mo I have seen a picture of a Brown from the coast that was thought to be a sea run. By looking at the picture I would guess the same. It was very bright and clean with only a hint of brown and the red spots. I just can't remember who or where I saw the picture.
Bubz I know we pushed the subject around on Jefferson a while back about the Sea Run Cutts.After reading the paper you refer to about the sciencetific study of their migration ending at the Illinois I still have my doubts. I haven't caught one of the cutts I would call a sea run in years and I would call the ones pictured in this thread residents or whatever that fancy word you used was.The cutts I called sea runs above Gold Ray were super chrome with just hints of spots and I only got them in the summer. The enviroment of the river has changed a lot over the years since the dam was completed maybe thats why I don't pick them up anymore. It would be neat to have a scale sample from one to check out.

Mark

[WillJ]

Have had the pleasure of catching at least 2 Cutts around TV on the Rogue this season. Had one on I'm sure was a cutt as well cause of the size and the coppery flash it made. They seem to like eggs. Last fish I caught there was a cutt a solid 16 inches.
Have a Fisheries biologist buddy here in Oregon that has done some work on anadromous fisheres and says the technology is there for tracking them, it's just not small enough attach to the outgoing smolts. Which makes sense if you think about it. It would have to be miniscule and also be able to be tracked over GREAT distances.
-w

[bubzilla]

No question about there being some very large cutts on the upper river. Just as an example, I landed two this year one day drifting from Rogue Elk to Shady during the salmon fly hatch on dries that were close to the 20" class. Couple years ago I got one out of car body while the flows were really low during prime-time winter season that was probably pushing 22". I'd have sworn it was a nice winter the way it tore me up, and we were all shockd when we saw it up close. The question wasn't whether they were cutts; the question is whether they were searun.

The science, as it's been explained to me, would suggest those fish were either residents or fluvial--that is, they either lived in the area full-time or they migrated in-basin from smaller tributaries back into the mainstem river, but they never went to the ocean. Lots of guys catch a big cutt on the Rogue and automatically assume it's searun; that's just not very realistic given the biology of Coastal cutts. All you can pretty much say that high up in the river is that you caught a cutt--everything else about its pedigree is pure speculation.

[WillJ]

I hear ya...
I'd like to think they were residents myself :)
Reflects a pretty healthy system.
Now if we could just get down around 2000cfs we could go chase em again!

[PatrickM]

Hey, Will. Nice to see you on the board.
I'd appreciate it it you make sure the Rogue is in fishable shape by the time I get up there. If you've been good, Santa may even bring you some flies.

[WillJ]

Yeah, well i haven't been to the river in over a week what with storm fronts, high water, family visits & common colds. So it's either start posting or fly casting for 4Runners in front of the house.
Will try to get out a few times this week, conditions permitting.
Weren't you on the Feather today?
-w

[jbird]

Heres another pretty little one from last winter. I got a few on dries this day. I subscribe to the fluvial theory.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v283/jbird35/DSC01744.jpg

To assume a cutt is searun just cause the river leads to the ocean is very spaculative...especially when you can get them pretty much year round and in every size range. Honestly, I dont care. they are a sweet treat when your eyes behold them.

I think if a guy were to set his heart on pursueing only cutthroat on the rogue, and did his/her homework and really made it a passion. There would be great rewards in it. The problem for me is, theres too many steelhead to distract me all the time. I believe a lot of the big cutts reside in the sloughey places, Where you normally wouldnt dream of fishing.

Jay

[ycflyfisher]

Nice fish guys! Not that it really matters, and I know we partially hashed this out on the Jefferson board a couple years ago, but according to ODFW biologists searuns don't go above the Illinois on the Rogue. What we have above the Illinois, according to the biologists, are fluvial cutts. They migrate but don't go to the sea. Who knows if they're right, but scale samples and calcium ratios don't usually lie. I've seen a guide who shall remain nameless claiming to have caught large searun cutts well into the upper river, and the chances of that, given what the biologists suggest, are extremely low.

P.S. Is there any consensus as to whether there are searun browns on the Trinity? Most of the anglers I've talked to think there are, and I've seen a couple pictures of fish that definitely looked like they might be--of course, that's not a very scientific or conclusive way to judge whether they were ever in the ocean or not.

According to the fish bios from the USFS that do all the monitoring of the various fishes on the Trinity, the browns are migratory but not anadramous. I think you've got to go back a decade or more before you get a year where they counted a single brown at the Willow Creek weir. Yet every year they count 200-350 browns at the Junction City weir which is higher in the watershed. Since the known anadramous fish in the basin, always have higher respective counts at the WC weir than the JC weir, the browns have a profile where a negligible percentage of the fish as using anadromy as a survival strategy.

From what I'm told, by a freind that actually targets the browns 10 months or so out of the year, the browns utilize the river environs much differently than the rest of the fishes. Most of the season the browns congregate over the large grass mats in the longer frogwater stretches. But some of them move into the riffles during the chinook egg drop just prior to their own spawning.

When I asked the biologist I know about "chromer" browns, he pointed out they tend to silver up when the water goes from crystal clear to somewhat turbid after a storm. He felt most of the fish that anglers are catching that appear to exhibit "sea run" visual characteristics, likely have totally freshwater lifehistories.

There has never been a scale analysis study that I'm aware of, to any in depth level on the browns in the Trinity.

I know that browns were initially introduced to the Trinity watershed at a decades defunct, hatchery that was operating in Willow Creek. Browns were also artificially propigated at the current hatchery decades ago, but that practice was discontinued(I'm assuming because the observable population dynamics indicated they were probably residualizing).

[bubzilla]

Wow, thanks ycflyfisher. Very informative post.

I had a very interesting conversation with a guy from the old Wild Salmon Center ten or eleven years ago at a sportsmen's show in Portland about the research they were doing on the Kamchatka with steelhead. Anyone remember those trips they did where you collected scale samples while fishing, and the big teaser was the tax writeoff for the trip as a result? Anyway, he explained that some of the things they'd learned about these fish was that they actually could, and frequently did, become searrun long after they were adults. We're talking trout that were several years old going to sea and then coming back on spawning runs as what we'd consider steelhead. Pretty cool. The gist was that we'd done a great deal of damage to the health of our steelhead fisheries with decades of overharvesting what everyone simply considered resident trout.